Liston vs Marciano

Guy who broke his jaw weighed 179 pounds, so that puts the "Marciano was too small" theory to rest.
Archie Moore knocet out more fighters than almost anyoe in boxing, including many heavyweights. He only had Marciano down for 3 descends and Marciano got up and went right after him. How was Marciano ''Hurt?"

 

A Jaw is not hard to break when your mouth is open. That's why Fighters keep it closed...and that mouth piece helps.

According to this:

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http://coxscorner.tripod.com/liston_cf.html

Rocky was hurt. Your legs giving out like that is a sign that you are hurt. He also clinched up when the fight resumed. Marciano said he was hurt. Now maybe not hurt like he was about to get knocked out but enough to put him down and get his attention to be careful. And that actually doesn't get talked about. He was put down, understood he could be dropped, knew to be careful, and didn't get dropped again in the fight despite Moore being a slick fighter.
Also look at his reaction. There is no shame in getting hurt. This happens in boxing. Anybody can be hurt. Charles hurt him as well despite not going down. Again, not hurt like lalala land hurt but briefly stunned enough. Charles was Rocky's toughest and most painful fight according to the Rock. First fight was a great fight.
Ted Lowry was said to have staggered him. But that's when his defense wasn't quite as good. But that shows you how important defense/not getting hit is in this game. Also, like with Moore, he learned from his mistakes in the first fight with Lowry and won convincingly it was reported the second time around. Even Marciano says he didn't take many on the chin. Just look at that article I posted up in the previous post.
Walcott was the other one that dropped him. But again, it happens. Fighters get hurt when they get touched. Its crazy that these guys can even endure the punishment and shots they do. Its impressive.


Liston would still be the biggest threat Marciano ever had. Liston would be arguably be the Strongest fighter with very good boxing skills he ever faced. Better than Walcott, Charles, and Moore.

Now is Marciano a tough fight for Liston? YES. But I do think, with Liston being in his Prime, with the mistakes Marciano makes, and the way he throws, Liston would capitalize on it...especially behind that Jab. And on the inside, like Charles showed, he could tie Marciano up if he wanted.

Liston also had pretty good stamina when he was well trained (which was on his rise to the title and for the title). Some of those "older" guys, like Florio said, wear down because of their age.

Don Florio, Patterson's trainer, had this to say:

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It would be a real tough fight for Marciano as well as Liston. but if I'm going to favor one, I'm going to favor Liston.

To me, Liston is better than both Charles and Walcott so at least in the first meeting, I favor Liston.

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Obviously I would give Liston a real chance against Walcott, charles and moore but how can you be so sure Lison was better than Walcott, charles and moore? Liston did not beat any fighters as great as either one of them. Moore actualy beat Listons opponents around the time Liston was coming up with comparable results. He beat Whitehurst better and over a 5 fight serries recorded a better win over howard ''hunny boy'' king. This was a far more faded archie than the red hot one Marciano beat.
　

This is a something I posted on a previous thread on the Marciano -Liston subject to Mcgrain:
well I cannot argue with your opinion, it is loaded with the un original, established maxim of "good big guys versus good small guys" which I fully accept as being in the majority view on this match up. I also understand you rightly feel that rocky fights back and that you expect him to be weaker in all departments but heart etc. However, it alarms me that you wont adress the stylistic issues of Liston becoming frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in, climbs all over him inside then hits him clean at odd angles more often and with more power than any man he faced before. alarming because you whole heartedly aknowledge harry greb can give away more pounds and do this with far less power - even though there is no film to fully study how he did this.
　
　
　
　

Heres anither quote from another trainer.
:“who did liston knock out? Al westphal that’s all. Cleveland Williams was on his feet and besmanoff was stopped on cuts. Forget Patterson - he was psyched out. Boxing beat liston. Boxing and cassius clay.” - Angelo Dundee.

　
This is your opinion and I respect that. For me however I feel it is a tough fight also but have to go with the pedigree. I just don’t think Liston poses as many stylistic problems as you would think amd that a lot of Listons resume is built on his reputation alone and NEVER on what he actually did at world level.
　

I don’t think the exact same charles and Walcott that Marciano fought could ever have been beaten by any fighter Liston ever beat.

 

So then you'll compare him to the Rocky that was out on feet and fighting for his life against journeyman Ted Lowry in his Providence days ?

 

Of course it boils down to the "heart and stamina" pitch since all facts ( size and style ) point to a Liston massacre ... :nut

 

Come on now ... Charles at 33 , a blow up light heavyweight with over 100 fights, Walcott at 38 and KO'ed by Louis among others years earlier, the giant, balding, flabby and legless Louis at 37 and of course heavyweight titan and over forty Moore (another blown up light heavy) all defy logic when it comes to Marciano fanatics. ... suddenly this group of weathered former greats are actually at their best in their battles with Rocky ... age, size and mileage don't count ... they magically all transform into their primes or near to it in their bouts w Marciano ... it's hilarious ... in reality it's exactly what A.J. Liebling called it in his very hands on coverage of Marciano's 1950 fights "Rocky and the old men ." None of this takes anything away from the fact that Rocky beat them all nor that Liebling wrote that he believed that Rocky "had more to beat" than Dempsey ... it just puts the fanatics in their place ...

 

Unlike floyd patterson who froze against Liston, champions jersey joe walcott, archie moore and ezard charles all fought and trained like ATG champions when losing to marciano. Films of these fights bare it out. competative, great fights from great fighters.

Name one Liston victim good enough to have beaten the same moore, walcott and charles that marciano met. If you could find one ...now that would be hilarious!

would roy harris even got past old joe louis? how about burt whitehurst? machen (who ingo KOd) vs walcott and charles?

 

I think Liston would pump him bad with the jab and stay out of trouble en route to a TKO stoppage on a cut. Tough fight for Marciano. The great big guy beats the smaller great man almost every time.

 

There are exceptions to every rule. Marciano is the one with real pedigree here and both were 1950s heavyweights. Liston at 27 years of age was no heavier than leon spinks. sonny had 1 inch in height over marciano and was no bigger than joe louis.

 

I hope you reread your own b.s. ... Liston was a rock solid 215 when he won the title. Liston was 6'1" with an 80 plus reach .. what absolute nonsense you are trying to spin here ... is your point Liston and Marciano were the same size ? Does that include when Rocky was wearing his toupee ? :nut

 

I think all will agree,,,,,,,,,,Rocky was powerful, but not quick.

The issue at hand, would Rocky still be resilient enough to handle a 'piston-jab'
for 10 Rounds, and have enough energy to come roaring back.

Rocky would have to score some in the middle rounds, to take away some of
Sonny's strength.

We would have gotten a little more information on Sonny, if he was taken a few rounds
by Wayne Bethea, who had some skills similar to Rocky, but nowhere near the power.

Hard to get a gage on Rocky, looking at the Joe Louis fight. Joe had no power-punch
anymore, and couldn't keep anyone off him. He was, a 'sitting duck' for Rocky.

 

My points are
1. marciano has more pedigree than Liston
2. if Liston was born in 1927 then he was fully grown man at 198-200lb in 1953 and therefore not as naturaly as big as some would like to think .
3. Liston did not beat fighters as good as marciano, who hit as hard and were as proven.
4. Not one of Listons opponents who he beat would have beat Moore, walcott or charles on the nights they met rocky.

 

Liston wins by unanimous decision


HEGrant is a fool

 

Before Sonny Liston took apart Floyd Patterson in 1962.


This is what they said about Sonny Liston in 1961.

* A slow cumbersome tree, with a hard left jab, that you can see coming at you
from across the pond.

* A medoicre heavyweight, that is muscular. That's it.

* He may have the power to defeat a little 185 lb. boxer like Floyd Patterson, but
he ain't no Jim Jeffries. He's not as strong as his size indicates.

 

ouch!!! And that was after his best run when todays you tubers would expect the world in 1961 thought liston looked like a cant miss ATG!!!

very suprising indeed. who were those quotes from?

I think Liston was better than that, but it is a wonder his stock increased so much further after just two more rounds of action before he was slammed for the clay fights.


Do you think the mystique of the clay fights somehow allowed the ATG image of Liston to be re invented? Or was it Tyson chic in the 1980s where people started making comparisons with the last scary champ?

I always assumed Liston would have been regarded as the next joe Louis by 1961.