Liston vs Marciano

Choklab,

Gilbert Rogin...Boxing Writer
Mort Sharnik...Boxing Writer
Jack Hurley.....Boxing Manager and Fight Promoter

I agree,,,,,,,,,,Sonny was 'torn apart' by the boxing pundits in 1960 an 1961 -
as they regarded him as a 'big bully' that just overpowered his opponents with
his strength and size, and not the skill at hand.

Some Quotes;

He is no Gene Tunney for sure - and Floyd Patterson's hand speed would do him in if they ever met.

What Sonny need's in 1961, is more seasoning and at least '5' more fights before
facing a 'skiiled boxer' like Floyd Patterson.

If he defeats Floyd Patterson, it will by Floyd's 'fear of Liston' not Sonny's talent.

The guy is a 'hoodlum', and as soon as someone hits him, he we fold like a cheap lawn-chair.

This 6' 1" 220 lb. brawler, a semi-illiterate fellow too, is very cunning. Don't let the little boy act fool you.

Oh he's strong, as I saw Sonny lift the front end of a Ford car off the ground. And he wasn't even mad.

 

Thanks for those quotes. :good
　
　
　

Wow! This guy was right on the money. Floyd was a great fighter …just not against sonny Liston. Floyd did not go down fighting, a world champion folding like that…twice!! A one round blow out is a disaster, it shows Floyd was not in the right frame of mind to fight anybody both times and should have been ashamed. I believe Liston was good enough to have beaten floyd legitimately and could have been robbed of a chance to prove it because floyd simply never was competitive in either fight. Not Listons fault. He showed focus and pulled the trigger. Floyd never got going and was not worthy of the title with either display. A shame for Liston really.

The two fights Liston got in 1961 were not any prep for a title fight. Westpahl and king, but maybe nobody rated was available, sometimes that happens. The way Floyd showed up it did not matter. Patterson had paid his dues in the Johansson series so was a worthy champion on paper but for whatever reason let himself down. Floyd went into both fights with doubts that overcame him and nobody performs when that happens. The awful thing was he had a rematch clause and had to go into it again with the same doubts and added pressure of “decent America” on his shoulders. Floyd even went into the fight asking folks to “give Liston a break”… poor guy.

 

Cholab,

Actually Howard King was a 'replacement' for big Young Jack Johnson.

1962 pre-Championship fight training camp - Sonny was 'not' the least bit
impressive both camps, 1st in upstate New York and 2nd in Chicago.

 

I think it's true that Liston was generally not considered a 'great' fighter by many people until he beat Patterson.
The Patterson KOs gave him that 'invincible' mystique that some fighters are credited, because those wins were just SO EASY.

In retrospect, I find it hard to see Liston as a true ATG among the heavyweight champions.
The poor showing he made in losing the title seems to cancel out the ease at which he won it. But of course it would be wrong to penalize him for Patterson's lack of resistance also.


All-time ratings are a strange and contentious issue, but as much as I love watching Sonny Liston at work at his devastating best, it's hard to justify him as an "All Time Great" in the same way the likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Ali or Frazier are.

 

It is ironic to me that just about all boxing historians rate Marciano as the greater fighter with the more decorated career. Yet in head to head matchups Maricano seems so underrated on these boards.

Maricano seems to get chastised for beating the great albeit way over the hill Joe Louis. The what-if scenarios abound. What if Maricano was really hurt against Moore. What if Lowry really staggered him? It sounds like a bunch of old frumps approaching menapause or something. The bottom line is Rocky didn't get knocked out and won those fights by knockout. And why is a fact that Liston was stronger? Marciano had legs like an NFL fullback. Where do think he generated that crushing power from?

Liston seems to get a pass for some career moments that make him look decidely mortal despite the impossibly long reach and hulking physique. I'm more in love with Marciano's consistent results and excellence in overcoming adversity than some guy's 84" reach okay?

Fact: Liston had jaw broken by Marty Marshall in an early bout. Fact: Quit on his stool against the then Clay in 1964 in Miami. Was kayoed by one punch by Leotis Martin in 1969.

Great fighter? Absolutely. Would have easily dispatched the immortal Marciano because of his mythical reach..... One poster exclaimed Liston was really 6'8" and 245lbs. compressed into a 6'1" 210lb. body. He's like a comic book hero on here if you listen to the hyperbole. He was a great fighter no doubt but people tend to go overboard a bit.

Here, I got one for you all: Rocky Marcaino: 49 bouts with 49 victories!!!!

 

I have Marciano taking Liston apart after some tough early going in 8-10 rounds.

 

Yeah, the Liston-Clay fights could well have been fixed (I suspect they were) ... but the point is it still leaves a question mark over Liston's abilities and achievements.

 

Rocky beats Sonny to a pulp, Liston showed his lack of heart you cant say that about Rocky, Rocky would have some tough moments but he prevails no question.

 

If you want to 'pick' Sonny apart,,,,,,

Look at his January 1958 bout against Bert Whitehurst.

Sonny, listed at 6' 1" and 205 lbs. (Age 31) not the listed 26.
A supposed terror at 20-1-0, and Heavyweight-On-the-Rise.

Bert, 6' 0" and a solid 192 lbs. (Age 26)
Whitehurst had a 'spotty record' of 24-13-2 (10 KO's).

But, the 'Baltimore Scrapper' had only gone 8-12-2 (3 KO's) in his previous '22' bouts.
A 'world beater', not by a long-shot, yet in a pre-fight interview said he knew how
to beat this 'bulky boy'.

When Sonny throws his long left jab, you can see it coming. So when he does shoot it out,
to avoid it, you only have to slide to your left just a bit. Then let his fist slide past over
your right shoulder. At that point, you dip and fire a hard left hook, underneath, to his
exposed body (right side ribs).

He doesn't like it there. Of course, you have to be quick when doing this. The problem with
Sonny, is that he is a big boy and has a big body. He positions his right hand in a poor position,
and he cannot counter quickly.

 

Ted Lowry owns Marty Marshall and Tiger Ted had 115 fights to Marciano's 20 and 127 to Marciano's 29 but even though Rocky did not look great in fight one ( he was sick and light) mostly all felt Marciano won and I spoke to people who watched the fight and said Rocky did not look good but no doubt he won.

 

The Rocky Marciano of (1951 thru 1953) could defeat the Sonny Liston of (1959 thru 1961).

Not would,,,,,,,,but could.

The onging question about Sonny was,
in '54-bouts' only '5' of his opponents were as big or bigger than him.

The M.O. - he liked to beat up on little guys.

The Big Guys
April 1959 - Cleveland Williams
August 1959 - Nino Valdes
March 1960 - Cleveland Williams
July 1966- Gerhard Zech
June 1970 - Chuck Wepner

 

Thats always been my point. Marciano was outweighed about 27 times and Liston outweighed about4. The best guys Liston beat were not bigger than him, or the biggest he fought. The best sonny beat was folley, machen and patterson. Neither undefeated, neither over 200lb, neither that competative when he fought them and all fought harder against other people.

 

Choklab,

I will have to say,,,,,,,looking more and more at this 'fantasy fight'

If Rocky's back was 100%, and he stayed low and mobile, he could
defeat 'stiff Sonny'.

But, if he got upright with his 5' 10 1/'2" body, Sonny would 'pile-drive him'
with the left jab.

A few hard bangs by Rocky, and Sonny would be wary when attacking.

It is a 'close one'.

 

sure would be a close one and neither of us would no for sure one way or the other. rocky was hard to tag with a jab. Even Ali was amazed with that, and he had to move around him to find out. the guy was so awkward and hard to predict. At long range rocky stayed low and worked an opening luring the other guy into his range. Rocky was not unbeatable you just had to be as tough as he was, control the distance and second guess his move. Liston was not that guy. Sure sonny had a killer jab, shortened the hook and was devastating against a sitting duck but marciano was there to work off you and not do what you were ready for. Liiston was always about putting the hurt on. He was not going to change. sonny's not going the strategic route, playing it safe. he knocks a guys head up with a jab and he’s coming in with the right on instinct. A tough seasoned guy (like rocky was in his championship years) would be ready to give and take. marciano and top champions don’t take it full force on the way in.