Liston vs Marciano?

Toward the end of his testimony Johnson dropped a small bomb. He was asked to look at some pictures and from them identify those who were in his dressing room before the fight. (The dressing room was large enough so that Mederos used one end of it.) He identified Jimmy White, Mederos' manager of record, Baron Cohen and Larry Kent, Mederos' seconds, and then threw the room into confusion when he picked out a photograph of Louis Saccaroma.
Saccaroma is an ex-convict. He has been convicted on narcotics charges and served three years and nine months of a 10-year sentence. Alias Lou Black and Louis Roman, Saccaroma has been arrested in various cities and, according to Philadelphia detectives, is Mederos' co-manager, along with Jake LaMotta. Philadelphia police believe both men are associated with Frankie Carbo in Mederos' management.
Johnson testified he also had seen Saccaroma around training camps in Florida. Saccaroma denied he had been in Philadelphia for the fight.
In trying to determine whether Loughrey is Johnson's true manager or just a front for Matchmaker Moran, the commission touched on financial arrangements. Johnson expressed confidence in Loughrey's honesty but added that they had argued about payments made to sportswriters.
"Some of them," Johnson testified, "got $50 or $100 and I didn't think the fight was big enough for such big payments." The point was not pressed.
Skinny Davidson, however, indicated that Moran might have at least some financial interest in the fighter, though matchmakers are forbidden to use their own boxers on their own cards. Skinny said he complained to Loughrey that he always got his 10% off the top of the purse when he trained other fighters but with Johnson his 10% was arrived at after all expenses were paid.
"That's the same as I get—10%," Loughrey told him, though as manager his share was one third. When asked if Moran got anything, Skinny replied: "I don't think the man would advise Tom [Loughrey] without compensation."
The commission indicated that The Case of the Poisoned Orange was only part of a continuing investigation of all phases of boxing, with emphasis on Philadelphia, City of Brotherly Gloves. Meanwhile, by Governor Leader's order (SI, May 23), boxing is under a 90-day ban in Pennsylvania.


As I stated in the Louis Godoy thread Mendoza is 20 years adrift in his timelines when talking about the heyday of corruption in boxing.

 

Liston had the misfortune to have his second defence against someone called Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali.
If I wanted to be facetious I could say he twice took out a man who kod Moore and he did it in a total under of 4 minutes.

 

We've come full circle. It's not that Liston just lost to Clay, its how he carried himself in those matches and responded to adversity that lead me to question Liston's will in regards to a potential match up with someone as relentless, discouraging, and tough as Marciano. Liston puts him on his ass, Rocky is going to get up quickly and take the fight back to him, Liston cuts him up, Rocky is still going to be in his face trying to end the match, and what if Rock lands one of his Suzie's, Liston goes down...will he get up? I don't think this one is going the distance, someone is going to be broke. My vote goes to the guy with more intangibles. This is what I'm talking about, and I hope you can respect that.

That goes without saying. I already stated in this thread I feel by the late 50s, Liston was without question the better HW overall than Moore. And if I wanted to be facetious, a 46 year old declined Moore stood up to more punishment and showed more heart against Ali than Liston did in two matches. But that's just making a pissing contest of it.

 

Interesting read, thanks for posting that.

 

Moore was always great and in the mix of every weight class he competed in, but his run in the 50s was a completely different animal.

 

World rated for two decades means he was undeniably great, how great he was as a heavyweight is a horse of another colour ,as my old house master used to say.

 

Guts, intestinal fortitude, call it what you will, Marciano had it in spades ,Liston has a big question mark over him due to the Ali fights. I am basing my opinon of Liston's durability and will to win largely on his fights with Williams,and though he lost, it should be remembered that he continued against Marshall with a broken jaw.

I think an aging Liston took Ali lightly and was in no condition for a fast competitive fight ,finding himself in one he just said to hell with it. It happens, Duran v Leonard?
Marciano was dumped by Walcott's left ,Walcott was a fast accurate puncher , but I doubt he hit as hard as Liston.Marciano was floored by Moore's right , Liston had a good one though he was somewhat clumsy in its delivering it,check out him catching Williams with it.

It's a good match up , and if the best Liston turns up against the best Marciano I put my £££ on the big man with the pole- like jab.

Its possible Marciano might outgame him, its also possible that he would be butchered by a bigger man who was his equal in power and had that thudding jab to set up his power shots.I think the last scenario is more likely.You think other wise , both opinions have equal validity imo.

 

For whatever it's worth, Archie Moore was the only man to stop Bert Whitehurst twice. The same year the Mongoose stopped Bert after decking him twice in round ten of their rematch, Whitehurst became the only man to last the ten round distance with Liston twice. Liston-Whitehurst I took place one month after Moore-Whitehurst II.

Moore-Liston could have been extremely interesting in 1958, Archie's final really active year with ten bouts. He was aging, but still had fast reflexes along with that ridiculous experience, great powers of recuperation in Durelle I, after Yvon caught him with LHW speed, and Moore's own speed certainly wasn't lacking in Durelle II.

The Mongoose scaled as high as 200 during 1958, Sonny as low as 204 for Bethea. Liston closed out 1958 with a surprisingly tough match against Ernie Cab. It might have been too early for Sonny to take on Archie, as Liston was coming off a two year hiatus then. Moore was in the midst of a 20 bout undefeated streak after Patterson which would last through the rest of the decade. Sonny had eight fights in 1958 to bring his record to 22-1.

Hand speed was a huge difference between an old JJW, Moore, Charles and Louis, and a young Liston. Sonny had good punching technique, but never terrific hand speed. Marciano decimated Rex Layne with vastly superior hand speed, and I think he had the reflexes and subtle defensive skills necessary to get underneath Liston's jab.

Machen showed Marciano could have been big enough to hang with prime Sonny, and we do have a visual of journeyman Scrap Iron Johnson advancing against an aging Liston while in an upright posture. At 5'9" George Johnson was shorter than Rocky [who himself only faced a prominent shorter opponent in the likewise 5'9" Freddie Beshore].

I could see prime Marciano securing the lower center of gravity with his anchors on the floor and pressing Sonny into steady continual retreat by slipping his jab on the way forward. Rocky was a middle lineman on the high school gridiron, and knew how to position himself so that he could hold his ground and not be moved back. As rounds wore on, Liston could well wear down when forced into this uncharacteristic retreat. This might further compromise Sonny's power, in addition to his lack of hand speed getting it there.

JJW, Moore, Charles and Louis all had very serious experience in addition to their hand speed when they faced Marciano, much more of a competitive background than Liston would ever acquire. And prime Rocky was no Machen [who did not run from Sonny as commonly stereotyped; Eddie was no Pastrano, and it was actually a good rough scrap, if clearly in Liston's favor, as Machen displayed no fear of him whatsoever].

Attrition wouldn't be a good thing for Liston to try with Marciano, as Sonny never did this with a quality fighter. He's not catching Rocky on the retreat with a long pole, nor does he have the quickness to bait traps successfully.

 

In the second Liston fight Whitehurst was rescued by the bell in the last round he had been knocked through the ropes virtually out of the ring when the count was stopped at 7 by the final bell. Liston never had fast hands ,neither did Marciano.

Machen didnt run?
"On September 7, 1960, Machen got another shot at the big time when he faced Sonny Liston in a nationally televised bout from Seattle. Machen looked dreadful dropping a 12-round decision against “Night Train,” then considered the uncrowned heavyweight champion of the world. “Machen simply would not fight,” wrote Harry Sanford. “Instead, he got on his bicycle and ran for twelve rounds, save when he would tackle, grab, hold, shove, and pull at Liston, who stalked him all the while, trying to land the big punch, a punch that did not come.”
Here is another report , kindly provided by Suzie Q.

STINGING JABS AND BODY BLOWS LEAD TO A UNANIMOUS DECISION


Liston defeats Machen in 12-rounder at Seattle-Portland Heavyweight is Floored by Low Blow in the 11th


Seattle, Sept. 7 (AP)- Sonny Liston of Philadelphia won a twelve-round decision tonight over Eddie Machen of Portland,ORe, in a nationally televised fight. Liston weighed 211lb, Machen, 196. There were no knockdowns, but liston's wildly flailing fists landed low in the sixth and eleventh rounds. Machen went down for the 2nd solid smash below the belt and was given a minute to recover. The Referee, Whitey Domsted, took the eleventh round from liston from the errant blow. The decision was unanimous, the referee giving ever round except the 11th to the victor. The two judges also gave it to liston one by 2 points, and one by four.

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The portlander's strategy was apparent from the opening bell. He retreated throughout the fight, forcing liston to move and turn and never present and opening target. There were severeal flurries of temper after liston landed his first low blow in the sixth. The fans immediatley swung to machen. Almost every blow to the body by the powerful philadelphian brought cries of "foul" from the stands. The Pre Fight Opinion was that machen had a good chance to win if the fight went beyond the distance. Liston however was in perfect condition and showed no signs of wearing at the finish. His only show of emotion was a slight smile afrer he slipped while throwing a punch late in the fight. Tempers flared in the fifth round when the fighters were wrestling along the ropes and they nearly exchanged punches after the bell. Listons best blows were a stinging left jab and occasional left and rights to the body at close range. machen scored best-but very rarely- with a left hook to the jaw as a counter to liston's right. Machen said he went the distance "without a right hand". The fighter said he injured his right arm while sparring with willie besmanoff during training last week and could not punch with it tonight. Liston said he was dissapointed that machen refused to mix it up. "You cant do anything when the other guy is running." - AP
Without the deductions for alleged low blows it could have been a shut out.

 

I think Marciano vs Moore was a match up of the two best Heavies and possibly fighters in the world at the time it was made for what that's worth.

From 50-55, only Marciano has a better HW resume than Moore. #2 Baker, #1 Valdez, #3 Henry, and desptie being primarily ranked as a LHW, Johnson, was a leading contender for Marciano after he edged Charles. I believe Johnson was attempting to challenge Rocky actually, but Moore obviously made more sense after he knocked Johnson out finally.

 

some sensible point being made here

 

absolutely Marciano may have not looked for the largest guys in his title rein but always looked for the best and the best contenders were the # 1 guys and 5 times Marciano fought and beat the number 1 contenders that beat the bigger men, Charles,Walcott,Moore,LaStarza all beat the bigger men and all but ****el were # 1 contenders

 

No one deserved a title shot more than Moore that is beyond question . Whether the fact that a 40 odd year old ex lhvy was the standout challenger reflects on the paucity of the division at the time is open to interpretation imo.

 

Than they would have an unreasonable low opinion of Moore if they attest his achievements to a poor era. What other LHW Champion had to do so much to earn his HW title shot?

Conn, Foster, and Spinks didn't have to clean out several top three challengers and a fellow P4P rival. Spinks got his shot with no HW experience, Foster had a horrid HW record, and Conn got his spot with one excellent win over Pastor.

Moore had to beat three top challengers and fend off another p4p great in Johnson to secure a shot at the Rock.

And when you look at Valdez, Baker, and Henry: they actually have some impressive outings on film and really excellent wins. But it was a crowded scene and Rocky only defended the title in stadiums twice a year to his #1 contender (once to his #2), leaving these guys with nothing to do but fight each other and other aspiring contenders continously, distorting their records and leveling them out.

This was a bad time to be a challenger, one loss or even badly reviewed fight in a busy tough schedule, and you lost your shot. Moore entered this crazy scene inbetween LHW challenges from greats Maxim and Johnson, and left unblemished, pretty remarkable. If someone wants to knock the era because he dominated in his late 30s, that's because they are out of ammo.

 

Very good post. Right on the money.:good

Styles make fights and kudos for explaining why technically marciano has an edge. Rocky would be a difficult fight for Sonny.

Liston was always a hundred times better when the other man was already psychologically defeated. That's what brought the best out of sonny, knowing the other man had froze. Liston was calmer and less potent when he was getting some resistance.

Marciano won't freeze. What brought the best out of Rocky was the other guy actually coming to fight.