Liston vs Marciano?

I saw a interview with Patterson where he said nobody hit him as hard as Ingo. it's a mute point. Liston was the come foreword two fisted banger while Ingo was a boxer puncher with power mainly in his right. Two different fighters with two totally different styles.

 

Ingo and Liston also both share KOs over Patterson, but who's to say who hit harder between Ingo and Liston as they both clearly possessed destructive one punch power, which is all we need to know.

Ingo was certainly the more polished and sneakier puncher but Liston was more aggressive and dangerous with both hands.

Its true to say Liston and Ingo were more proven than Williams, Patterson was as well. All three knocked out more higher quality opponents. Did Big Cat hit harder or more effectively? Its possible but he wasn't good enough overall to ever demonstrate it. That's why they say not as proven, because he simply wasn't.

 

Cleveland Williams was a half decent fringe contender from 1961-62. After that he was an eratic gun shot victim.

Before that WIlliams had a 55 fight, ten year period simular to the record of Lamar Clark. A ticket seller with a padded record who lost each time when he stepped up. For that spell Williams was the Texas version of Lamar Clark, only difference was he was tall and muscular and fits a modern agenda of what a good heavyweight should look like.

I have a harsh 1960s boxing magazine article stating that Texas heavyweights "can't fight" because of Roy Harris, Cleveland Williams and Tod herring were not able to win outside of Texas. There was a real view at the time that the Texas circuit created manufactured heavyweights. Williams also fought out of Miami but he was a Texan.

Williams was a puncher but he was no uncrowned would be champion or Listons policeman. It's baloney. Williams was merely an exciting Texas and Miami attraction at a lower level. He never knocked out a rated fighter or beat a single fighter who was current.

From the 1961 miteff win to the 1963 Terrell loss WIlliams recorded fair results but that's it. Nothing anymore worthy than the ranking he got at that time.

 

Somebody does not agree.

Williams was an aggressive, two-handed hitter who carried real dynamite in each fist; He was a very powerful hitter who is most famous for his "showdown" battles with Sonny Liston; He may have become Heavyweight Champion had Liston not been around at that time During his career, he defeated such men as Ernie Terrell, Wayne Bethea, John Holman, Omelio Agramonte, Frankie Daniels, Alex Miteff, Alonzo Johnson, Terry Daniels, Roberto Davila, Billy Daniels, Roger Rischer, Bob Albright, Tod Herring, Dick Richardson, "Young" Jack Johnson, Curly Lee Chapman and Sonny Banks

Herb Goldman ranked Williams as the #22 All-Time Heavyweight; Cleveland was inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame in 1997
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Williams kod Terrell in 1962, in 63 and 64 Terrell was no 3.
Williams kod Miteff in 1961 the year previously he had been no 8 Williams drew with Machen in1962 in 1960 Machen was no 3.1961 no2, 1963 no3.
To equate Lamar Clark, who never beat anyone with Williams.[as I predicted you would try to do in an earlier post], is not only to insult our intelligence it actually demeans the man that made the comparison.

 

These were not earth shattering results. Micky walker beat and drew with better heavyweights. All contenders beat the same guys. Note that I said After 1961 Williams was a fair contender. Richer, miteff, Richardson, bethea were Henry Cooper opponents. Big deal. .They had all been found out on the opponent circuit and no longer rated. All came after the Liston fights too.

Before 1961, the first ten years of his career Williams was the Texan Lamar Clark. I stand by that.

 

Consider yourself demeaned.:good

 

I have to admire your guts for standing by that comparison. Lamar Clark compiled a long unbeaten streak against novice opponents, many of whom had no professional experience at all. Williams' victories against the likes of Dick Richardson and Curley Lee may not have been "earth shattering", but they were several levels above anything Clark achieved.

Also, it's bizarre to criticise Roger Rischer for being a "Henry Cooper opponent" seeing that Rischer actually beat Cooper. He was ranked 9th when he was flattened in three by Williams, his only defeat in several years being a competitive decision loss to Eddie Machen.

 

Ingo was the more "polished" puncher ? Certainly ? Care to try and define that point without a temper tantrum ? :roll:

 

you are corect. After 1961 Williams was a fair contender and beat fair fringe guys on the circuit, just like everyone else. That ended in 1963.

Williams's Lamar Clark days were the first ten years of his career fighting guys called graveyard Walters and losing when he stepped up. It Is not the biggest insult. lamar Clark was not without talent, he won golden gloves titles, its just that his record was a publicity stunt.

By the way Brian London knocked out Rischer in one round, Williams had no exclusivity there.

 

Absolutley staggering. What great fighters did Williams beat? What great fights did Williams win?

Williams ATG credentials are rubbish.

Great fights make great fighters. Great fighters win great fights and beat great fighters.

 

My problem with Cleveland Williams being described as an elite puncher is that when he moved up to the B class fighter his power was not evident. Just a look at some of his opponents at the time Billy Daniels

Daniels went the full 10 with Cleveland 2X, Daniels was stopped by Ali prior to the 2 fights and also stopped by Karl Mildenburger and Oscar Bonavena KO 1 in the same time period.

Frankie Daniels went the full distance with Cleveland and Frankie was stopped by Earnie Terrel, Joe Dorsey,Liston, Satterfield,Liston, Chuvalo,Bob Murphy & Dick Finley X2 in the same time period

Mel Turnbow went distance with Big Cat and he was Stopped by Jim Beatie, Chuvalo,Joe FrazierKO1, Buster Mathis

Sonny Moore went the distance with Big Cat and he was Ko'd in 1 by Franco DePiccillo KO1,Al Jones KO9, Buster Mathis, and Bob Foster

I think Williams qualify s as a big guy with one of the best builds, especially in the era but Bob Satterfeild exposed the 31-1 Big Cat and then the 2 Liston KO losses but what made Williams a much better fighter from the Satterfield loss what made him such a big trophy win from Satterfeild to Liston. I know much of the Liston legend is based on the 2 fights with Big Cat but the fact are that Cleveland did not show it when he stepped up in class...he looked like he could punch but by his ring record there really is no evidence

 

Corect Bummy. For the life of me I just don't get it.

Being a big puncher at one level is just that. One level.

Making Cleveland big cat Williams #22 All time great heavyweight over real champions? I just cant see it.

 

Look B D I've just got in, I'm half pissed, but your evaluation is flawed. Mac Foster was known as a terrific puncher,how many A level fighters did he ko?
Like wise who did Lyle ko at top level?

The idea that Wiliams was not a top level puncher is ridiculous.

 

You just don't get it period.

 

I get this about you...