Liston vs Marciano?

After 1961 Williams was better than Lamar because he branched out into the mainstream opponent circuit and could beat the same guys on the fringes that all the other guys had beat.

Williams was prety good he just was not an ATG. Lamar was not without talent either because he won golden gloves titles, so it is no insult to Williams to compare his first ten years in the paid ranks with Clark.

 

I think you're wrong choklab.

Lamar Clark beat guys who probably weren't even proper boxers. More like carnival-tent opponents, 'tough guys', truck drivers, pro wrestlers maybe.
It's hard to tell if some of these had any boxing experience whatsoever.

Cleveland Williams fought mostly low level opponents in the 1950s, but even they were proper boxers, many were the same names Marciano, Liston, LaStarza etc. were fighting.

 

Actually, some of names on his 1950s record who are easily as recognizable (to me) as the ones McVey mentioned.

None of them are particularly good fighters, not the top contenders, but seasoned fighters with verifiable records.

Omelio Agramonte, John Holman, Bob Albright, Keene Simmons.
I doubt Lamar Clark would fight guys like that.

 

These guys were absolutely no threat by the time they were delivered to Williams though were they? There were a lot of unknown, obscure strangers on both records in my view. Ten years was a long time to only get round to beating those types of guys. Clark's entire career lasted 33 months. In 33 months I guarantee Williams was up against comparable guys as Lamar.

 

They were FAR MORE of a threat than pro wrestlers and inexperienced truck drivers and farmers.

Guys who'd been in the ring with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, guys sparred and fought with some of the best, guys with dozens of pro fights, veterans, proper professional 10-round fighters, just a few years removed from their primes, and active .... guys like that, even if they are washed-up journeymen, and i know we often easily dismiss such opposition - they are A LOT better opposition than the guys Clark was beating, many of whom might never have had a boxing lesson in their entire lives.

I can guarantee than in 33 months, Williams beat some better fighters than Clark ever beat.

It's not that Williams didn't have a seriously padded record. He did. But Lamar Clark's was the lowest of the low.

 

I think the pressure would be on Liston to get Marciano out of there early. And I think we'd have to see a better, sharper, more focussed Liston than ever to make that a possibility.
If the fight goes 4 or 5 rounds without Liston really imposing himself and doing damage, I think the odds move sharply towards Marciano winning.
If Marciano gets to round 6 or 7 relatively unscathed, Liston starts to look just like anyone else, and more or less becomes inevitable that Marciano closes him down and KOs him sooner or later.

 

After 33 months Clark lost 3 fights and Williams lost 2 fights. Clark had 10 more wins. The best guys both fought emphatically beat them. It is not that far apart. Radmacher, ALi, Bartolo soni for Clark and Sylvester Jones and bob satterfeild for Williams.

 

Agreed. :good

 

Who were the best fighters Clark beat ?
Which ones were even real professional boxers ?
Which ones were 10-round fighters ?
Which ones had more than 10 pro fights ? More than 5 pro fights ? More than 0 wins ?

There's a noticable difference between the 'padding' on Williams' record, and that on Clark's. It's shocking, because Williams' opposition IS very poor. But Clark's takes it down to another level.
It's downright fraudulent.

 

The Clark comparison is absurd and either you know it and are trying to make a ridiculous point or believe it which is worse.


http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/news.php?p=18571&more=1

 

although I do consider Mac Foster and Lyle somewhat overrated as punchers I do not think they are as badly overrated as Big Cat.

While Foster built up his career on B-rated guys he exceeded Big Cat because he was at least KOing them ( unlike Big Cat and the list I just posted) Mac KO'd Zora Foley KO1 and Foley went the distance with Oscar Bonavena 2 years before, in fact Foley was going the distance win,lose or draw after the Ali KO, also Roger Russel (who just had a win over Leotis Martin and a draw with Foley, he was mostly losing but Mac took him out in 3, He stopped Big Cat 2x, Thad Spencer a yr after Quarry, He stopped Roger Richer and Jack O'Haloran and while some of these guys were fighting top guys and losing Mac still got the KO unlike Big Cat at this level

Lyle had a KO over Shavers after being dropped and hurt and while it was impressive it was an attrition fight and Shavers fizzled he also stopped Larry Middleton in the 1st fight but was taken full route in the 2nd, also the Foreman fight made many people think Lyle was a great puncher but Big George was easy to hit (hard to take his hit) also a wide puncher, easy to counter but Lyle had him down a few times.

I still think Lyle was overrated as an effective puncher but not as bad as Big Cat

Lyle drew with Peralta,went full route with jimmy Ellis who was KO'd in 1 by Shavers and stopped again by Frazier after Lyle, won a SD over Wendall Baily who was KO'd by Bonavena and Leotis Martin and Franco DePiccoli also Lou Bailey took him the limit and Bailey was just KO'd by Rodney Bobick and Shavers among others

Bob Stalling was another guy who took Lyle the distance and he was Ko'd by Jack Bodell,Alvin Lewis 2x,Henry Clark, Willie Moore (in his 3rd fight) and Larry Middleton

so while I think punching was not Mac Fosters worst problem (Quarry showed us) he still took out the B level guys that Cleveland did not, and Ron Lyle has a proven KO over Shavers and dropped Big George and KO'd Middleton but I still do not consider him elite as a puncher ....Big Cat has that one win over contender Terrel but from his KO loss to Bob Satterfeild when he was 31-1 to his to KO losses to Liston he did not even KO the B level guys that I mentioned in the prior post and these guys were getting KO'd

while you have a point that Lyle and Mac Foster may have not been the punchers of legend there power showed up more than Williams and Big Cat proved much less above the cannon fodder level

 

I think there is a huge difference between power and the talent of the fighter ... combining a very late career start with a pre-career chest stabbing that left him for dead, Lyle was a big , strong but limited fighter .. however for pure power he was a terror .. Foreman called him on multiple occasions the hardest puncher he ever fought as did Joe Bugner ...to cite his losses or victory wins as proof of lack of a punch is missing the point .. power is irrelevant if it is not effectively delivered .. Ron Lyle was one of the hardest punchers that ever lived .. just not a great fighter ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQoox1xTO24

 

In their first 33 months compiling knock out streaks neither Clark nor Williams beat anyone remotely relevent to championship level contenders. This is well documented. It is not just I who believes it, you have to believe it too because it is the hard truth of the matter.

You could argue that the battle worn, washed out keene Simmons and Emilio agramante had at least been capable way back when but they were still handpicked. There was a lot of tank town fodder from the back woods with mysterious records amoung the big cats victims during his first 33 months. Clark may well have fought more of these apalling characters but he also fought more than one a night.

Is Clark lasting into the 10th round against Pete radmacher the same year Pete outpointed George Chuvalo over 10 rounds that much worse than Williams lasting 3 rounds with Bob satterfeild the same year satterfeild was knocked out by Marty Marshall?

 

Foreman on Lyle and Williams ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmG_gR576EA