Liston vs Marciano?

Ok , let's look at the punch, right cross? No it was not, it was a rising right hand.. Moore was a very good puncher ,, but he relied on placement and timing he did not put out many top men with one shot. He is in competiton with Louis as in Uzcudun, Braddock , B Baer, clinical one punch kos. Plus numerous others. Schmeling,Lewis,Sullivan,Marciano,Foreman ,Baer. and thats just a few champions not including Sheppard,Satterfield etc, Moore would not make the cut, I doubt his right was harder than Holmes's.

Rocked? Did Liston, at any time look like going down?

 

Every World class fighter Williams fought "walked through" the big cats punches. Liston was not unique in that. Keene simmons (not world class) walked through WIlliams punches too and he said Marciano hit him a lot harder. 20 or so men walked through WIlliams punches. Some of them were not that good.

 

Terrell didn't.
Simmons was kod by Hurricane Jackson, do you think he hit harder than Williams? It's a silly argument.BTW, Marciano never floored Simmons.

 

Right Cross is a Rising Right Hand, as its used to counter a jab, but I'm not going ot argue over the specifics of the terminology.

Braddock didn't put out any top men with one shot, but you still listed him?

All fine right crosses and Moore belongs in their class, except Bear and Marciano's knockout right was more of an overhand, looped at a downard angle in most cases.

I recall him being hurt, but I don't think he was ever going down though. As Liston said something to the effect of "He was not polite in the first round"

 

A silly argument is saying Liston did something exclusive when he survived against Williams. Many fighters did this. Frankie Daniels, Sylvester Jones, Howie Turner, Wayne bethea, Billy daniels, Tommy fields, Mel Turnbull are just an unremarkable selection of big cat survivors. Then there are all the better known guys who beat him...including Terrell.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trJ9ImgN1JM

Moore wasn't an all time puncher with his right hand? atsch

 

No that was my bad phrasing, I meant Braddock,Uzcudun and Buddy Baer were examples of Louis's great right cross, my fault. The right cross is the punch that usually follows the last jab, unless one is hooking off the jab. It isn't rising, it is by definition crossing, by choice over the opposing jab.

 

Who was Embrel Davidson?
Do you mean the guy who had just been stopped by Henry and would go on to be stopped by Toxie Hall ,Marciano's sparring partner. How about if I trawl through Liston and Williams footage and show them half decapitating nobodies? Davidson was sparring partner level .

 

Look like every other thread involving Marciano there are those that preach the Marciano Doctrine ... no track record or thread of logic based on boxing history matters to them and there is no way to reason ... these threads fragment into splitting hairs over nothing ... interesting how they are almost always over Rocky or Dempsey though ... you rarely hear them over Louis, Ali or most others ... everyone else is based on actual achievement , not rationalized excuses ...

 

Davidson knocked out Marty Marshall before Marshall beat Sonny Liston. surely davidson was better than sparring partner level if he did a better job on Marshall than Liston could in 3 fights?

 

If you watch the Willi Besmanoff fight below Liston boxes fairly steadily and Besmanoff is able to do his own thing in there aswell - he looks neither overawed or out of his depth and Liston was in no rush - to be fair though in most of his fights Liston does tend to go for the kill a little more and Liston did tend to look like the strength and power advantage he had over most people was just unfair but watching this fight you have to say that Marciano obviously had very thing needed to be fully competitive in there was Liston - whatever people say Marciano never go controlled by a jab - Walcott and Moore and Ez (and definately Louis) could not establish their jabs (and they were amongst the premier artistes) so I don't see Liston being able to really establish his and Liston could be fought back contrary to the pervading imagine I have when I think of Sonny - when you watch the Besmanoff fight he could be traded with and it was possible to take his punches without being crushed - and Liston could be made to back up and could be rattled - he was human and Marciano I think could take him to very uncomfortable places - Marciano was fearless and he wasn't reckless and gung-ho he could take a step back out and round and back at things from a different angle and he could be quite cute in there when he wanted - sometimes Liston did get rattled and could go into his shell and Marciano definately had the power in his own fists to do the job - Marciano Liston is a fight which is very 50-50 in my eyes

http://youtu.be/GTwAqweYTP0

 

Braddock is in the running for great right hands, regardless.

Moore's punch is refered to as a "right cross" in countless articles and write ups. Never has it been differentiated as a "rising right hand." Iin fact the only commonly recognized deviations of the straight right are "overhand" and "cross "

The Right Cross:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Cross1.jpg

Anyway, in terms of counter right hands (rising or otherwise), Moore is in the elite company of Louis, Schemling, and Satterfield. Moore's right hand didn't always score a one punch knockout as few signature punches like that do, but it often put guys down, changed the dynamic of the match, or badly hurt them in route to the stoppage. Moore's status as an all time great power puncher from MW-HW is cemented, there is no shame in him dropping you with a perfect punch. He has finished 131 opponents of various size and style.

Regardless Moore had a superior right hand than Ali, and to the eye of the observer landed a much better punch on Maricano than Ali did Liston. Marciano got up at "2" and came back to win the fight, Liston stayed down for whatever reason or excuse in infamously humilating fashion.

You will also find Moore and Liston from 58-61 shared many common fringe opponents and produced similar results with their punching power. Now I think Liston is the stronger man and a superior fighter at this stage but in terms of effective punching, the gap was not huge enough to produce startling different results. They were stopping the same guys in similar fashion, give or take, stylstic considerations.

In short to belittle Archie Moore's flush right cross as "getting knocked down by a 42 year old man" is just absurd and insulting.

 

How can you NOT pick Liston if you pick Lewis and Tyson? One has a questionable chin and the other had debatable heart. I think Liston beats Marciano; too much power and strength. Not knocking Marciano, though, he was great.

 

Speed and the uppercut are the keys to beat the Rock imo. Sonny was too slow. I think Marciano had to much power for Liston and see his uppercut and overhand right beating Liston's jab to the punch.

 

Exactly.:good
I have often thought this myself. Sonny was a great fighter but the fights that made him look like king kong were not necessarily against fighters who stood up to him.

Besmanoff was brave and did trade with him. It was a cut that stopped him, willie was not blown away. sonny was not king kong in this fight but he showed excelent long range variaty. Liston appeared calmer. Willie was not intimidated.

However, Sonny was king kong against Harris and Patterson though, he swept them aside with the greatest of ease. I always wonder if they froze?

I am not saying Liston and Tyson were bullies because both showed courage and character in fights but if a fighter froze in front of them they were dead meat. Both looked twice or even ten times the fighter if they knew the other man was already psychologically defeated.