Watch the video,I boxed, I know what a right cross is. Moore himself said," when I fought Marciano my legs were gone , but I had the guts, skill and braggadocio ". So He wasnt a 42 years old man and whats more a pumped up lHVY? If I had been lying about that your point would be valid , but I'm not ,and it isn't. I'll get back to your other points later ,going to the pub for the jazz.
He was being charitable. Louis was overwhelmed when he tried to use the "step in jab" that he usually used. There was no room. Could not work off it. After 2 rounds Louis tried a "step off jab" that worked but the footwork required expended him, Rocky was looking to time joe with single shots for two rounds but after that he mauled Louis again. Ground him down. Was always going to.
Marciano finished the Louis fight with two puffy eyes , must have been Ruby Goldstein jabbing him.:huh
Joe Louis landed his "step off" jab enough times to do that. It was the "step in" jab that did not work. Louis marked up everyone he ever fought -even in those comeback fights. Ever see Savolds face on that pic where Louis knocks him down? Or Charles' closed eye after Joe fought him?
Marciano was in danger of being stopped in two fights because of facial damage. FACT. Liston was never cut before he fought Ali.
There is a reason Liston never went 15rds, or even that many rounds at all. Going into the first Ali fight ,Liston had 36 fights , but a total of only 126 rounds . Liston was beaten by Marshall when he got his jaw broke , he beat the **** out of him in 2 subsequent fights. If Marciano had continued fighting to Liston's age,[whatever that may have been,] there is a distinct possibility he would have a few losses on his sheet.
I boxed as well, all my family boxed, the term "raising right hand" has never been used in all my experience, especially as something that could be distinguishable from a right cross. I'll meet you half way and call it a raising "cross" Moore sometimes really loaded up and threw it from the hip but it was still a straight right that crossed his opponent's jab. And when Moore had youthful legs he was inconsistent and limited by nagging stomach ulcers. Moore's most successful run was as a vet in 52-55, that is undisputable, he had a 3 year/22 win streak (best of his career) and claimed his signature scalps over Maxim, Slade, Olson, Johnson, Valdez, Baker, and Henry. I think you could argue in 55, he was Pound for Pound possibly the best in the world at this point or in that running. For starters, he probably wasn't a 42 year old man as pointed out. And now you are throwing out "blown up LHW" to downplay him, when in reality he was cutting weight for sporadic title defenses with his "spit diet" and fighting frequently and regularly above 175 at this time. Marciano wasn't just knocked down by a "42 year old" If that even was his age, he was an all time great fighter and puncher at the peak of his fighting abilities. To call Moore just an old man in the 50s, is to deny his achievements in the 50s, which is to deny him as an all time great fighter. Who is Archie Moore, without that incredible "Ancient" chapter of his career?
His 7 signature wins as you call them have just three rated heavies in there, the others are lhvys.Slade was marginal. Moore's mother stated he was 42, that's good enough for me . He was regularly above 175 because he ate too much, not because he was a natural heavyweight ,he never was. Moore himself stated his legs were gone by the time of the Marciano fight. "You understand, when he got me in a position where he could hit me,then it wasnt long before I had to crumple up because I had no legs,.Probably I hadnt had any legs for the past four,or five years, but I had the braggadocio,and the skill ,and the guts.". Archie Moore.October 1970.
-Olson, Johnson, and Maxim were at LHW limit. I'm not sure what your point is? There was no intent on my part to protray his success as exclusively HW. -His birth is oficially listed as 12/13/16 and that's good enough for me. -Moore disagrees. "I later developed into a light heavyweight and really am now considered a heavyweight" Whatever the reasons, he fought at 174-190 at this time, and always looked solid and comfortable. What is natural weight anyway? That can't really be defined. -Well, I didn't dispute that. As he said, he didn't have legs since 1950, and that didn't stop him from having a dominating run over younger top ranked fighters of various size and style. And as he said, he couldn't counter Marciano because it was like fighting a boat motor.
Had Johnson/Liston happened it, Johnson would have been a live underdog. Johnson slumped a little after the knockout loss to Moore, but he was a consistently great great fighter from 174 up and capble of outboxing anyone. He beat Moore once, Bethea, Whitehurst, Marshall, Old Bivins, Henry Hall, Toxie Hall, Charles, Satterfield, Valdez, Slade, Henry, Machen, and Jones. Ring ranked him #80 all time P4P, quite an achievement. But the topic at hand is, in regards to a Liston/Marciano match does the Moore knockdown a huge detraction against Maricano. Did he get dropped from a simple "42 year old with no legs "as you point out or did he get caught flush from a hard hitting all time great? Is getting dropped by Moore in a win comparable to Liston's humilating controversial one punch defeat to Ali? Absolutely not. My point stands. Marciano without question, a mentally tough fighter, Liston not so much. All this focus on Moore, we've also forgot about Walcott. Walcott liked to cruise but he had dynamite power in both hands, and he did nearly decapiate the tough Charles with the very hook/uppercut he dropped Rocky with. I think Liston can absolutely drop Rocky, but can he finish him or put him out cold before Rocky can discouage him? Anything is possible but I don't like the odds.
Never a top man but embrel Davidson creamed marty marshal better than Liston ever did BEFORE marshal whipped Sonny. Embrel could not have been that bad.