Liston vs Marciano?

Nice, great piece of history there.

 

Bivins also kod a prime Moore dropping him multiple times ,and Bivins was no puncher.

 

So are you trying to argue Moore was a "glass jaw" now?

Archie hadn't hit his stride yet and during this particular match, was out weighed by almost 20 lbs or so, 186 to 168. That's too much weight for Moore to give up to a guy like Bivins.

Weird fight, apparently a knockdown in the 2nd left Moore on his knees. Bivins then hit an uppercut whlie he was still down and defenseless after the ref already started the count, putting him to sleep. The fight was restarted after a 5 minute rest and the still dazed Moore took a brutal beating and went down multiple times before it was finally waved off. Luckily he rebounded from that mess.

But yeah, lets joke on Moore for getting knocked out under unsual circumstances to a still prime all time great Jimmy Bivins with a 18 lb weight advantage. Moore learned his lesson and showed up for subsequent bouts against Bivins at a more reasonable weight. I imagined he was also better prepared for Bivin's dirty tactics. Every result has a story.

 

I apologise if you think I patronized you. However concerning boxing history or boxing itsef i do have the qualifications. Don't worry I won't pull rank though. :good

 

Before we bring up the Morrow fight as another example of Moore's supposed "glass jaw", he got sucker punched while apologizing for an accidental low blow. Stuff like this and the Bivins fights were bad situations he learned from, and helped him grow into a legend.

 

Hadn't hit his stride? He was 28 by your reckoning ,30 by his Mothers ! Was he a late developer? Moore came into the fight with 13 consecutive wins behind him. Its ok for you to factor in an ancient Liston being stopped by Ali , but I musn't mention Moore being ko'd by light hitting Bivins, is that about it?Bivins dropped Moore in their next fight too when Moore was at least 31 so don't imply he was some novice. Moore was not glass jawed ,neither was he cement chinned Booker had him down 5 times .Burley 4 times and he was 28 years old in those fights 30 if you believe his mother.Moore had 72 fights under his belt at the time, same as Burley,who was the smaller man.

 

Moore did not have a conventional career. Each time he had a set back he regrouped and came back stronger for his next campaign. Took him a long time to develop into the fighter he became famous as. Statistically, physically and actually ARchie Moore was a great fighter when he fought Marciano. Moore was an outstanding heavyweight in his own right. He moonlighted in the lightheavyweight division as a spring board for the HW title.

 

I think its time we put Mr Wright to bed and got back on track don't you?

 

Moore had a solid jaw but he was exposed by great fighters with terrific speed to be vulnerable. Look how Patterson and Charles took him out easier than Marciano.

 

That's a very simplistic and flawed reasoning. Every fighter is different, and you should know that. You can't apply the yearly standards of one fighter to another without context. Moore peaked as an all around fighter in his mid-late 30s and his success in his advanced years is a testament of that.

Well, I would certainly hold the Patterson loss against Moore, which is a far more fair analogy to Liston/Ali. But sorry when evaluating the great Archie Moore of the 50s whom Marciano faced, I'm not going to read much into his middleweight shortcomings 10 years previously or freaky circumstances like the first Bivins fight. It's obvious he matured into a vastly different fighter.

 

No he didn't. He kayoed a 168lb moore who hadn't fully grown into his 185lb frame he later did by 1947.

 

I wouldn't say Charles took him out easier, by all accounts Moore had charles on the verge of a knockout in the 8th round before Charles miraculously came back to put moores lights out. But I agree with what your saying about Moore and speed. Then again, Harold Johnson had very good speed, and moore beat him 4 times.

 

In all of this where was Sonny Listons Archie Moore?

All champs have a rival who represents a defining title defence that established greatness. Who represented this for Liston?

 

Moore was consistantly world rated from 1940 onwards.

 

CASE OF THE POISONED ORANGE
The new Pennsylvania boxing commission—in office only since February when Governor George M. Leader ordered a cleanup—had an even more dramatic case. Its chairman, James H. Crowley, once of Notre Dame's Four Horsemen, and members, Alfred M. Klein, former investigator for the Kefauver Crime Committee, and Paul G. Sullivan, Pittsburgh sports-writer and lawyer, were concerned about a poisoned orange.
Two ring physicians testified that Harold Johnson, a leading light heavy-weight who was a 4-1 favorite over Julio Mederos in their Philadelphia bout, had been drugged in his dressing room before the fight. Presumably the drug had been administered in an orange which Johnson sucked shortly before stumbling through two dazed rounds. When Johnson was unable to come out for the third round, Mederos was given a TKO victory.
The commission charged Johnson's manager of record, Tommy Loughrey, his handlers and Matchmaker Pete Moran with prior knowledge that Johnson was not in condition to enter the ring and with participating in a "sham, fake or collusive boxing match." In addition Moran, matchmaker for Herman (Muggsy) Taylor of the Philadelphia Arena, was charged with being Johnson's undercover manager. Taylor promoted the fight in collaboration with the International Boxing Club ( James D. Norris, president) and it was shown on television.
The doping might have gone undiscovered had not a Philadelphia newspaperman, John Webster of the Inquirer, noticed Johnson's slowed reactions when the drug was just beginning to take full effect. Webster turned to John A. Saunders, boxing commission secretary, and asked: "What's wrong with Johnson? He doesn't look right." Saunders passed the word along to Dr. Alfred S. Ayella Jr., ring physician, who was able to make but a cursory, 20-second examination between rounds and found nothing "grossly wrong" at that point. Johnson said he felt "all right" and wanted to continue. The second round began.
" Johnson shook his head," Ayella testified, "and a few seconds later landed four to six punches. Then the boys were in a clinch. They were parted by the referee. Johnson's head went forward without being hit and he fell to the floor. I felt that the bout should be stopped. The bell ended the round and I signaled the referee that the fight was over....
" Johnson by then was entirely different. He was disoriented, confused, irrational. He got up and fell to his knees twice. He was in no condition to leave the ring under his own power and I ordered a stretcher."
Dr. Wilbur H. Strickland, another ring physician, also examined the fighter briefly and then Johnson was taken to Hahnemann Hospital. Urinalysis showed that he had been fed a dose of a barbiturate.
Johnson had weighed in at the commission offices the afternoon of the fight, left the building and was accosted by a stranger standing at the door.
"I don't think I knew the man," Johnson testified, "but he seemed like a nice feller and told me that he had seen most of my fights and even his kids were interested in me."
They chatted for some 20 minutes, with Johnson trying to break away because "he smelled from garlic" but each time the stranger detained him.
"He had an orange in his hand," Johnson related, "and was holding a paper bag. He took an orange out of the bag and said, 'Have an orange, Harold.' I refused, but he persuaded me to take it and I put it in the pocket of my sport jacket and finally went home."
Johnson, in fact, is very fond of oranges and sometimes eats six a day. He ate the stranger's orange that evening in his dressing room. First he rolled it in his hands to soften it.

"I noticed juice coming out of the top of the orange [perhaps where a drug had been injected by hypodermic needle,] so I sucked it and then bit into it. It tasted bitter and I said to Skinny [Davidson, his plump handler], 'This orange tastes bitter...Skinny, this orange tastes just like you—bitter.' "
Actually, parts of the orange were sweet, part bitter. Johnson ate only some of it, then flushed the rest down a toilet. About 15 minutes later he was nauseated, dizzy and suffering from a headache. He told his trainer and manager about the headache.









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