Liston vs Marciano

After sustaining a broken jaw in the 4th round of his fight with Marshall , Liston continued for the rest of the 8rds fight and lost a split decision.

Against Williams ,Liston had his nose broken but kept going and ko'd his opponent.
Did you ever fight through that kind of adversity, Mr Lefthandlead?:think

 

Well said, mcvey. Liston gets overlooked due to the Ali fights and is portrayed as simply a "no heart" fighter. I think this is simplistic and unfair.

Out of interest, what is your view on the 2 Ali-Liston fights? They seem highly dubious to me(especially the second fight). Do you think there was a whiff about them because of Liston's connections? I've read quite a bit on the subject, I'm just interested to hear another opinion.

 

I think the first fight was on the level.
Liston went into the fight with a bad left shoulder. He had tried to get the fight postponed and was refused.
He underestimated Clay and thought he could get rid of him within two rounds. During the fight he tore ligaments in the left shoulder until it was unusable. Eight doctors signed sworn affidavits to that effect.

I think he quit for good reason. He was unable to use his left arm. He did the only thing he could do under the circumstances.

The second fight was a dive, pure and simple.
It was a prearranged fix. It was executed so poorly I'm amazed anyone would even argue about it. Walcott was in on it and Ali may have been.

 

I would root for Liston. I haven't watched enough of Rocky's fights to determine who I think would win. But I'm a fan of Liston, and (I am white, first of all) I believe alot of these white heavyweight champions were given an easy ride. It is shocking how much racism plays a part in boxing history. I mean people worship assholes like John L Sullivan, and I love Jack Dempsey as much as anyone, but these guys REFUSED to fight black fighters. You cannot ignore that. Had Dempsey fought Jack Johnson or some class B or class A black heavyweight, what would've happened? We'll never know.

Rocky overrated anyway. He's as overrated as Floyd Mayweather. Sure, he was tough, had a lot of tough fights. Everyone makes a big deal about how Rocky beat Ezzard Charles with his nose broken and torn off a little bit...ok, big deal. We've all seen fighters continue to fight and win fights under much worse circumstances (Ali broken jaw against the monster Ken Norton, Holyfield with a hole in his heart, Tyson fighting with chronic bronchitis and a slipped disc in his neck against Bonecrusher Smith, etc...)

 

:good that's exactly how I have it.he'd vastly underrated Ali and had probably trained for a 4 or 5 round fight against a foe who would stand in front of him.
In the second fight sonny fell as quickly as he could.
The key for me has always been Ali's reaction.he knew he hadn't landed a ko punch.anybody who has ever boxed know when they land a good un'
You can feel it all the way up your arm into shoulder especially with hooks.
As for sonny v rocky it's a one sided hammering.rockys heart and fitness isnt enough

 

Liston went into the first Ali fight with 2 rounds of boxing in the previous 2 years,6 rounds in the previous 3 years .He was complacent and overconfident,thought it would go a couple of rounds and then he would get the mouthy kid out of there.

Because of his inability to cut off the ring,Liston always had trouble with clever boxers that fought on the retreat, Machen is an example.

Against Ali , Sonny simply wasn't in shape to fight a match of pursuit and trap,when you havent trained diligently , lack ring rounds , and you're in with the fleetest footed heavyweight of all time you're in trouble.
How bad Liston's shoulder injury was we don't know, only he could answer that.
As an aging ,undertrained boxer I thought he gave Ali a pretty good go for a few rounds.
Could he have continued? Yes . Would it have made any difference to the result? No.imo.
I discount a fix because I can't see any motive for the mob to relinquish their hold on the richest prize in sports the Heavyweight Title, no big betting coups were reported either.
Liston's people had a return clause in their pocket.Did that colour the result? I don't think so, the second fight would suggest not.
I thought Liston would ko Clay/Ali , in their intial match ,my Dad had a bet on the challenger at 7/1.I got it wrong, he got it right.

The only premeditated fix in which the heavyweight title changed hands was the Sharkey v Carnera fight imo. I'm in the minority on that, but that's my view.

The second fight, I don't think Ali had any inkling Liston was going to go down, neither him nor Walcott.I'm inclined to think the punch legitimately dropped Liston but that it was a flash knockdown , not sufficient to really buzz him.
Liston may have just thought," **** this I dont need it" the same reaction I think that came over Walcott himself against Marciano in their return fight.

Yes ,I'm inclined to think Liston tanked the second fight but that Ali wasn't in on it. There was no huge shift in the odds to support a premeditated fix.

 

Any odds shift was almost impossible to track in the US in 1965.
The only legal betting was in Nevada, which catered to the tourist trade.
99% of the real betting was done with illegal books throughout the rest of the country or through private bets.
None of these people would have publicly reported their odds or how much money was being bet on which fighter.

 

So Liston quit?

I also think any great fighter who only gets six rounds ring activity in the previous three years is going to be too far away from what made him great. However well he trained he was, Liston (nor anyone else) could hope to be good enough to win a competative championship fight on so few rounds.

The second Ali v Liston fight was a complete farce. I think that Fleischer, the time keeper, Ali's crazy loon antics after the knockdown and Walcott's ineptitude ruined what ever Liston had in mind. ALI was sharp enough to drop Liston but not getting a count and all the other stuff ruined any chance to discover if it was a fix.

 

He was on his feet with his hands up when Walcott became aware that the Timekeeper had counted Liston out ,if you want to interpret that as a quit, so be it. I was asked for my opinion ,so I gave it, I have no more inside info than anyone else.

 

Not to mention the NOI dudes in the audience.

 

But the fact remains that both MSG and Boston Gardens turned down the fight because of suspicions of underhandedness.

 

Yes you are correct. Fleischer, Walcott, the time keeper and Ali all prevented us finding out if Liston wanted to quit again or not because no count was administered.

I was asking if you agreed Liston outright quit in the first fight rather than dumped it.

I think in the first fight Liston had no appetite for a tough fight since he knew he was so rusty. He trained well but as you say, 6 rounds in three years... He was getting beat.

A tune up before the rematch might have allowed Liston a chance to rediscover his mojo or desire. I dont think the title answered the questions for Sonny he felt it could. So many blood suckers around him.

 

Liston got himself in shape for the rematch by all accounts ,but Ali's hernia op screwed that up.