Liston vs Marciano

A small heavyweight with, slow feet and a tendency to cut, a diminutive reach of 68inches that means he simply has to swarm forward irrespective of his opponent,collides with a brute who possesses an 84" reach,a telephone pole jab, murderous power in both hands, and is 25lbs heavier?
I can't for the life of me see this. I would plunge significantly on this fight and my money would be on Sonny!:good

 

If I remember right, and I might not, it was offered to NY before Boston but they would not grant Liston a license. Thus, they were forced to Mass and signed a contract in the summer of 64. After the ink was dry, Gabriel Byrne had got wind of it being fixed and didn't want it. Boston Garden wanted out, too. They used some issue in the contract as the pretense to cancel... I forget what it was exactly.

Remember there was also the hernia surgery on Ali in November. Supposedly, Liston was in great shape at that time but when he returned for training for the rescheduled date he was in miserable shape. Amon Lincoln, one of his sparring partners, was supposedly having his way with Liston.

 

The WBA stripped Ali of his title and banned Liston after it found that there was a mandatory rematch clause in the first fight's contract. Almost all states followed suit.
The second fight was bogged down in that mess, also.

 

The rematch clause itself could be instrumental in the whole thing. Walcott had to rematch Charles, marciano had to rematch Walcott, ingo had to rematch Patterson, Patterson had to rematch Ingo, Sonny had to rematch Patterson, Ali had to rematch Liston. Of all those fights how many beaten champions particularly relished going straight into a rematch? The clause prevented the former champion from retireing or rebuilding with tune up fights.

I have heard theorists say with a water tight rematch clause in place there is less shame in pulling out with an injury, but the down side of the automatic rematch is there is no possibility of a confidence boost tune up.

Remember Dempsey taking on Sharkey? How much better was Dempsey when he rematched Tunney?

The Ali Liston rematch took a long time to come about. Now I know about the cancellation, but remember Sonny was by then a long way from a full active year like he had in 1960 by the time he took on the new champion. Without all the theories this point alone can explain a lack of enthusiasm for a rematch.

I don't think Walcott was anymore switched on for Marciano second time around than Sonny was second time around. The thing with a rematch clause is you never knew if the ex champ wanted it. Were ex champs sometimes having to go through with a fight they did not want? Patterson and Olsen had to endure the same fate twice.

 

What you say is perfectly plausible; my own doubts about Liston ate mainly due to his connections and some of the points other posters have raised.

He seems to be trying in the first fight, but is unusually ineffective in his attacks. Is it possible Liston could have made it 'look good' for a few rounds? I realise it sounds fanciful but Liston had some shady people around him.

As you say, though, Sonny was getting old and was rusty which could explain him losing that bit of timing and snap, similar to Hagler against Leonard.

Even then, Sonny gave Ali a good fight and it's no disgrace losing to Ali. I know both Ali and Dundee really rated Sonny and I do, too.

I personally think Liston took a dive in the second fight, but don't discount your theory either. I think the Black Muslims might have spooked Liston in some way as some have claimed.

As to a Liston-Marciano fight I would have to favour Sonny. I have a lot of time for Rocky but I just can't see him getting to Liston often enough to do his war of attrition number on him.

Cheers for the reply.

 

I accept the style advantage is a huge reason why Liston should start Favorite with most people. I would not like anyone to risk a fortune either way. I'd bet on the underdog because despite the style advantage, size, cuts Rocky has the chin to keep him in it, heart and power to upset the favourite.

At elite level there is not enough to really count on Liston in a real competative championship fight with a great fighter. Just my opinion, but Rocky had too much of a great right hand at his best for anything to be an entirely foregone conclusion.

Sonny did beat a great fighter very easily so maybe he was too good to be truly tested at his best? I think we need more than Sonnys build up opponents to find examples of competative wins. I think the rematch clause era robbed us of ever knowing how Sonny gets on in a great fight, or a winning championship fight where he gets hit back. Great fighters win great fights as well as having great wins.

I wish the Foley fight was filmed and I also wish Sonny could have been free to defend against other chalengers besides Floyd, before Ali.

 

I think what we really dont know about Sonny is how well he would do against a ballsy puncher with the will to win. Stylistically this fight would favor Sonny but we really dont know the effect of the intangibles.

I remember thinking Mike Tyson was unbeatable but Buster was out of character that night after losing his mom, he got off the floor and said F--k it and Evanders chances looked very bleak after stopping Bobby Cyz a former middleweight that was never a puncher) but Evanders heart made a big difference vs Tyson

It is Sonny fault that doubts can be raised because he was busted up and resigned on his stool in fight 1 and tanked it in fight 2 against Alpha dog Clay then Ali, it was the intangible quality of will and strength of mind that changed Sonny into unbeatable to ordinary.

As far as styles we can say Ali had the style edge over Liston (speed? maybe or mind and will?)

As far as styles we can say Liston may have it over Marciano,Frazier,Holyfield but as far as intangibles if anyone may have them over Sonny it was those 3

Liston had a good win over Patterson (styles and will) I dont think Floyd was at his mental best and not sure if his best makes a big difference. Liston had a good win over Big Cat (I will not undermine his power) but Big Cat is known for his losses to Liston and Ali not too many impressive wins over quality.

Some things are not what they seem and little Big things make Big little things

 

And how many years older was Liston at this point than when Marciano retired.

The great problem with assessing Marciano is the tiny sample size of his career which people want to extrapolate to the kinds of opponents he never faced. He basically only fought at the top level for about 4 years. While he never ducked anyone in this period, it was hardly a deep talent pool inclusive of many opponent types. On the other hand, one could argue that Liston fought at or around the top for 15 years. Of course he would meet with imperfect foils to his style… as well as just grow old in the ring.

 

It does not matter how long a fighter fights what counts is what he does in his prime and how he reacts outside of his comfort zone. Some guys like Walcott-Hopkins,Moore got better with age some guys like Frazier had a shorter prime.

The best fighter Liston fought that believed in himself was Ali and Sonny failed miserably and his 2 losses against Clay-Ali were directly after his 2 best wins over Patterson so i dont think we can use the age card here.

 

What you think lacks less credibility every time you post.

 

Mendoza and others are right about you, you are an ugly human being and you have zero respect for others opinions if they differ from your own.

 

From a scientific standpoint, it absolutely matters the sample size of a fighter's career. It's just lunacy to argue otherwise.

Marciano basically fought 15 or so fights at the upper level against about a dozen fighters. The rest of the time he was dwelling among NE circuit clubfighters. That is not a deeply representative sample size of styles and talents. Liston fought 35-40 fights at the upper level. He had the challenge of facing a more diverse, deeper talent pool.

 

so are we going to judge a fighter on how he fought in his career or speculate how poor he would have fought had he not retired and aged in the ring. My belief was we always Judge a fighter on his best years prime in the ring. I dont think we can penalize a fighter for retiring at the right time, many on ESB give Lennox praise for retiring rather than give Vitali a rematch and I think this is just but quite different than judging a fighter who clean out his division, rematched tough fights and had no $$$ fights left on the horizon and retired while still on top of his game with no challengers

 

Rocky never outclassed anyone. He was a grinder. Looked beatable but was harder to beat than he was. I think his fight with Moore was good. He proberbly hit harder in other fights but he was quite subtle defensively in this fight using his pace well against a very crafty fighter. It was a major showdown at the time. Almost a million dollar gate too. Rocky got knocked down but showed all of his qualities here.