Liston vs Marciano

But in his last fight of 1958 Nino took that terrible beating off the footballer (Charlie Powell) who knocked him down three times. That would pretty much drop him out of the ratings altogether before his next fight because he never fought for 10 months. Then starting 1959 he beat the wrestler before Nino took another walloping from Alonzo Johnson who won their fight 8-1-1 on the AP scorecard. Nino had slipped out of the ratings entirely and slipped quite a bit as a fighter since he was rated by the time Sonny got him in his next fight after that beating.

 

We are talking at cross purposes.

 

^^^^
ouch!

 

Cosell called Liston's bluff and exposed him as a bully?
I don't buy the "Liston was just a bully" angle, but even if I did, a rug headed wimp like Cosell would be the last person to intimidate and back Liston down.

 

Liston is more famous for his big full forward jab. The one that knocked people back. The one some could assume would be most effective against a lower swarmer. As you proved Liston could box and use the jab to make room for something else. But this is not what he was famous for.

Sonny was famous for the Liston jab. Perhaps Liston did try a simular jab that Louis employed even, but that's not what I thought people were saying. I thought people are saying the big jab, the one that was better suited against taller upright fighters (that Louis also possess but did not use because it brought him too close into the mauling) would be a factor against Rocky. Well Louis had that too but he employed the other type to stay away. it bought joe some time and some rounds but he was too old to keep it up. So that type of jab, the one Sonny is more famous for, was used another way by Joe Louis. It is not saying that's the only jab Sonny has. I was answering mcvey because it was the other type of jab that was successful against Rocky. not necessarily the famous Liston type jab.

What did I make up? I said Sonny missed "a number of jabs " against Westphall as an example to suggest a shorter fighter won't necessarily get hit with each jab and every jab. The exact quote was:

" Incidentally, Sonny missed a number of his jabs against mismatched Albert Westphal who was shorter than Rocky. Sonny may have found the happless Westphal with a good right but the jab wasn't so effective against a shorter, crouching victim who could surprisingly still reach him. Impressive win though it was."

Liston did land with jabs but not all of them. Even against Westphal, yes a two minute fight. Yes he would land jabs on Rocky but not all of them. and he would be punching down and he would be lowering his guard to reach him.

I don't know where you get that I am so against Sonny I even wrote "that it is still a tough fight for both men" "Sonny was excelent inside"

A 50% ratio is good of course ....against a top fighter, but how many expect 50% against Westphall types? Be honest here, most people would think Liston never missed some body like him.

It's just an example. That's all.

I said he missed a number of them. A number. That's not saying Liston can't land the jab. He can land the jab, but perhaps less often than he did against Westphal if one considers if Rocky is better than Westphal.

 

Ted, I think Goldman taught him to fighter smaller because that was the only option he had .. Rocky was not goig to out jab too many .. it's one thing for Rocky to move in against a fading Charles or Walcott of a one punch at a time shot Louis , another to move in and slug with a pulverizing puncher like Liston and that is assuming he gets past a jack hammer jab with a and a fifteen inch reach disadvantage ..

Rocky wore down and over powered guys .. Louis, Walcott 1, Charles 1 and 2, LaStarza, ****ell, Moore .. I don't see him overpowering a prime Liston , thirty pounds of muscle heavier and bigger .. of all the Liston footage you don't see anyone outslugging him or surviving long when trading .. in addition, Rocky was not exactly James Toney on defense ... I just don't see him lasting long at all .. ti me it's a Hagler - Minter type of fight ..

 

Having just read the nice things you said about Bummy, with the greatest of respect, minter was a tall southpaw in that match up. I don't see Rocky as the taller southpaw in this match up.

 

I'm not saying any of this might not be factual but I want to ask the names of a few whose teeth Sonny knocked out. As for his not throwing the right hand much in their first go it makes sense, you don't throw a right hand against a moving target, it easily can leave you off balance and open for a counter. Sonny was seldom in a postion to throw one that had a chance of landing.

 

I don't have a dog in this race but I read Liston knocked out four of Wayne Bethea's teeth.

 

And how long ago was that? I have explained how I came to say that, it was in reaction to the view on Liston changing after the 1970s. I have come to learn a lot since then. As the 1961 boxing illustrated ratings prove Past Champions come in and out of vogue, I was wrong in the way that I said that -at that time- since then all I have done in regards to Liston is address how I feel Marciano has a chance in these kind of match ups. I know it is an unpopular view and that you disagree but you read too much into it.

 

That makes two of us then. I'm happy to go through it all again but you will just disagree.

I just don't see Marciano getting blasted back with that type of jab too often because it brings Sonny to reach down and within reach of Rocky when he misses and falls in. I feel Sonny could employ other tactics like the step off jab but I feel there is less evidence of safety first performances from Sonny. more often Rocky drew the opponent to reach down to him. There is more evidence of Sonny attacking and hunting down his prey.

Sonny will hurt Rocky because he is more capable than Louis was at that time but I also consider the chicken dance Whitehurst made him do with a right hand and the openings others managed to find on Sonny.

Not many could stand up to Sonny without becoming intimidated. But some did. Even with a style disadvantage I think Rocky could mentaly stand up to Sonny and this in itself could be a factor. Besmanoff stood in front of Sonny, he lost the fight, was still pounded and out of his depth but his non fear and his not backing down must have been instrumental in willie not being blown away. Surely Willie was more of a sitting duck than the awkwardly sheltered Marciano could ever have been against Sonny?

It's more of 50-50 showdown than many think. I give Rocky an outside chance and would bet on him.

 

I just meant Rocky getting blasted out in a few rounds more or less .. game but too much .. that being said you don't have to be too nice .. could get boring around here .. :good