Liston vs Marciano

I only disagree with you where you say things that are outright misleading or where you have outright mis-understood.

Right. That's why i've gone to great lengths to point out to you his alternatives, that your idea that he lacks power in his other jabs is shite.

I just ****ing showed you a bunch of footage with time codes illustrating Liston drawing back on jabs he moved in behind after getting hit twice doing it. I did this a day and a page ago. You acknowledge it - and then ignore it because it doesn't fit with your twisted view of both men.

Nobody is saying Liston is invulnerable to punches. They are just saying 1) He has a big size advantage 2) he has a big style advantage (Which you squirm to avoid, i mean watching you avoid the fact that he has a big style advantage but eventually have to acknowledge it is my favourite thing to watch you do, it's really funny) and now i am adding 3) you don't understand how Liston fights or pretend not to and 4) you are the biggest Marciano nut-hugger on the forum and can't be trusted to be truthful about how he fights either.

So it's 50-50 but Rocky has an "outside chance" ok.

Look, we get it - you love Rocky, you don't want Liston beating him in a fantasy fight because that matters to you. That's mildly annoying, but standard and not the end of the world. But you must stop lying and misrepresenting this/these fighters on the board. It's not right. You do it with just enough technical acumen that it sounds true to people who don't know the fights, kids, lurkers, whatever. And i'm getting really sick of working to expose it.

 

But the choice isn't between "falling in" and a "defensive jab". That's just not true. Liston's jab was a brute and that's whether he tried to follow it in or not. It was very hurtful whether he did that or not. When he follows it in it is because he thinks that is to his advantage.

Personally, I think the enormous - unprecedented - reach disadvantage Liston has precludes his following that jab in early. I don't think he would do it. He has enormous reach advantage on the two and he would use it. IF he did it, I have shown via footage that he has the tactical nous to adjust quickly.

This is nonsense. The jab is as serious a weapon if he holds his ground or moves off. It is just as hurtful and just as likely to cause a cut as the follow in jab. It's just setting up different kinds of combinations and that is literally the only difference.

You did ignore it - in fact you outright dismissed it in this thread. You wrote in this thread that Liston had a size advantage and that that was just about all. You wrote that. I pointed it out to you in this thread.

Previously, you've run all kinds of interference on it, and tried to insist that because there are very rare exceptions the accent is on those exceptions and not the rule. This is over years and years on the forum. But in this thread you outright dismissed it until I put pressure on you. This always happens, and it is tiresome.

what type of jab? I pointed out multiple Liston jabs in an analysis of just one minute of footage. I also have already stated that the follow in jab would be a significant factor in the fight and "perhaps the deciding one." It is astonishing to me that you would ask me this question. It is like you don't actually read what is said to you.

From 2:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSPJC7qSAeg

2:23 jab to the body
2:25 jab to the head
3:03 jab to the head
3:13 jab to the head

From 12:00

12:00 jab to the head
12:05 jab to the head
12:14 jab to the head
12:17 jab to the head
12:27 jab to the head
12:44 jab to the head
12:45 jab to the head

Marciano's ability to "discourage" the jab is, ironically, in your head. It isn't real. What he did do was absorb that jab and get inside. He was excellent at keeping low and taking punishment. What people are trying to tell you is that he wouldn't be able to take this punishment, and that Liston would get two bites to give punishment on his way in because the distance is so vast. Then, when he gets inside, instead of fighting with the cruiserweights he almost exclusively defended his title against, he would be fighting a prime heavyweight with a thirty pound weight advantage. That is more significant than any counter-point.

Charles was also able to land a number of right hand leads to the body against Marciano early. He identified Marciano's weakness here and exploited it, pretty brutally. It is specifically becasue Charles was so clever that he may - may - have thrown less jabs than he might have done - might have done - against an swarmer, because he was able to land a more dangerous punch as a lead.

But your basic premise is unsound.

That's because I am dealing mostly in truth and you are dealing mostly in fantasy. When you have to spend your time correcting a fantasist it is very unrewarding. I have been doing this with you for a number of years now.

It should be, and frankly if it were anyone else I would be shocked by this statement.

It is where the best fighters are concerned that style advantages are most difficult to overcome. This is because style advantages are defined by excellence. The greater the excellence, the more difficult it is for the disadvantaged fighter to take advantage of weaknesses - because, by definition, there are fewer.

Liston, along with Foreman, are Marciano's most dangerous opponents imaginable for this reason. This is also the reason why Firpo was very nearly able to stop Dempsey despite Dempsey's being three, four, five classes removed from him.

Dempsey, iv'e already covered off. He was at a very significant style advantage once in his career and he was very nearly stopped by a vastly inferior fighter who probably wouldn't have laid a glove on someone like Gene Tunney, although as a fighter, Dempsey is in a similar class to Tunney

I haven't seen Greb fight, but I saw Walker at an enormous style advantage once, and he was nearly killed by Max Schmeling.

These lessons don't define the fight, but they give us a very good idea what to expect. And Marciano needs far more than make-believe about Liston's jab and bad history to change serious minds.

Well we've seen that you don't understand his jab. I'm satisfied that you haven't looked at footage there at all, you seem monumentally confused. IF you have studied him, you've just studied him in the light of how Marciano would beat him and concentrated fiercely upon that.

And it's obviously still possible you are posting specifically to mislead whilst actually understanding, but how would I know?

Of course there are. In Marciano, too. The point is that Marciano's weaknesses, size, style, match up exactly, precisely, with Liston's strengths.

I agree. But in making the case it is necessary to avoid mis-truths, more especially half-truths, and the rampant bias I personally believe you have been displaying in your entire time on the forum.