Liston vs. Patterson.

Another excellent post. I definitely agree that a healthy level of fear will help you greatly.

For example, Frazier would've probably done much better against Foreman had he any inkling of fear in his body.

Also, Ali likely would've been knocked out by Liston had he not had any fear.

Regarding Patterson's chins, I agree that like Louis many of his knock downs were from being off-balance, and others were him simply taking breathers. Patterson's chin was definitely underrated.

"Liston is not a notably swift and flashy hitter, but that final left hook crashed into Patterson's cheek like a diesel rig going downhill, no brakes.

Annoyed fans who thought that Patterson should have beaten the count didn't know what they were talking about. There are no fighters extant, and precious few mammals of any variety, that could have beaten the count. The miracle is that Patterson was able to get to his knees."

I've always felt Patterson gets a bad rap for his chin, and in general. He had an excellent record against punchers, was never counted out, except by Liston a top 5 all time puncher, and was only ever dropped and stopped by the aforementioned Liston and Ingo. He was stopped by Ali, but they were because of injuries. His only unavenged losses were to Ali, the GOAT ATG and H2H, and Liston, another ATG and H2H monster.

 

Your exception is noted. Carry on!

 

Agree on all very well upheld points. Where’s the quote from if you don’t mind me asking? - very nice writing with accurate insight.

Re Floyd. I concur. Without sling shotting into overrating (which some might incorrectly interpret due defence of Pattersons chin as being) I think Patterson’s chin is somewhat underrated. Floyd was a tough rooster.

Though I am not familiar with his whole career that well but it seemed Danny Lopez was another guy who could be KD’d a bit more than average only to bounce up and come roaring back each time and win. What I’ve seen of Lopez otherwise, he was a very tough hombre also - and what he took from Sal Sanchez over many rounds over two fights without actually going down - well, it spoke for itself.

It’s funny, Liston probably did look slow and at his least flashy vs Floyd. Airs and fairs not necessarily required for Floyd I guess, - just a “come out of the gates”, brutal, “thuggish” and uber fast beat down.

Liston’s performances v Williams and others upheld a lot more in terms of Sonny’s speed, overall skill set and flash - clearly fighting to the demands of the opponent before him. I also think Liston put on an absolute boxing clinic vs Besmanoff - unhurried, patient, boxing it out but brutally so, with well above average power transmitted in each and every punch, Sonny at 212 lbs - perfect.

So right about Frazier too. Even for the Foreman rematch - no fear. Sure, Joe changed his tactics, more evasive but it was executed in deference to professional obligation and improved outcome. If you want to last longer and increase your chances of winning against Foreman, you gotta move more and for longer. Pure logistics. Playing express D was as abstract a ploy for Joe as colouring by numbers.

Though Joe did okay you could see that it went against his true grain: his strategic election wasn’t borne out of fear in any way, shape or form.

Even so, Frazier still understood what Foreman held in reserve, as Joe aptly put it one time, Foreman was like the operator of a crane with a wrecking ball attached. Joe actually came out with some nice gems - he just didn’t always garner the same audience as “you know who”, LOL.

In CHAMPIONS FOREVER, Foreman’s impression of Joe, returning to his corner, “quivering” with delight, and uttering “ooohh!” after a particularly brutal round of give and take v Quarry always cracks me up.

As George said, it was “as if” Frazier enjoyed it - I don’t know if that observation was far from the truth, if at all. Great fighter.

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1962/10/... no fighters extant,could not have been fixed.

I believe Liston actually looked slower against Patterson (particularly in their second bout) than he did with Williams years prior. Regarding Williams, I've always found him very underrated, as I alluded to in the Foreman-Lyle thread. I'm in the minority but I've always thought he was much better than Lyle. More skilled, fasted, a better boxer (as proven against Young), better stamina, beat more rated fighters, etc.

Frazier did a lot better than given credit for in his bout against Foreman. He wasn't in any danger of winning of course, but he lasted longer on his feet than anyone Foreman beat in his first career, and was the only one to answer the bell for round 5 without being dropped (Peralta being the exception for both), a feat that eluded the likes of peak Norton, Lyle, and even Chuvalo.

Was this referring to their first round? From what I remember, Frazier forced Quarry to throw at a pace he was uncomfortable at, and made him dramatically increase his output to keep Frazier off of him. Quarry won the round iirc, but this was completely unsustainable for him.

 

Thanks for the link. Awesome. Yep, aside from only bringing to the table that which was required to see Floyd off, the brevity also prevented Liston from even getting warmed up, Sonny had def. slowed somewhat at any rate - he looked that much faster, mobile and flexible from the opening bell v Williams. THAT Liston vs Ali 64 and beyond would’ve been a very interesting fight - at the least, far more competitive.

Yeah, it prob was the first round v Quarry that Foreman was referring to - I’d have to rewatch to say for sure.

 

I think that prior to their Sept 26 1962 meeting, Floyd Patterson knew he was way over his head in meeting a very damaging puncher in Charles Sonny Liston, there were psychological factors involved as well, Sonny was backed by sinister elements such as the underworld that we all know about. Liston was a towering figure that could intimidate any opponent with his hateful stare at ring center. He weighed 218 lbs, liked to stuff his terry clothed robe with towels to enlarge his frame, appearing overly large. Liston also had 14 inch fist, he kayoed rather dangerous opponents early, with the exception of Eddie Machen whom he decisioned on Sept 7 1960. Patterson's challengers with the exception of Ingo were safe opponents. I think that Floyd as talented as he was, relished his title reign, he knew that it would come to an end facing Liston.

 

I agree. Now that the 1950 census is out, and indicates Liston may be much older than we thought, it's not all that surprising he slowed down in those 2 years.

Also Liston was the only person from that point, until Patterson who refused to kneel over for Liston, with the exception of Machen, which likely led to Liston becoming complacent. He'd already been drinking heavily by the time he got to Patterson, and rarely trained from what I've heard (particularily for the second bout). I've always wondered, if Floyd wasn't scared, or at least had a healthy amount of fear as I discussed earlier and managed to extend Liston could he have exposed the cracks underneath the surface?

From what all sources say, Liston was untrained, dealing with an injury (which was verified beforehand and after), and bursitis separately, and had fought about 7 minutes in 3 years iirc. Knowing what we know now, he was very possibly 38-41 as his doctors estimated.

He probably didn't take Ali as seriously as even Patterson and is even on record saying as much. He was running over everybody like bowling pins, and Ali had just been knocked down by Cooper, and won a controversial decision over Jones.

Funnily enough, if Williams had just one more judge give him just one more point against Machen, he most likely would've received a shot against Liston, in place of Ali, and if so I truly believe we would've seen a very different Liston. Liston respected Williams more than everyone else in the division, and thought he was second only to himself. He'd know firsthand, the threat Williams represented, and would've postponed the bout, until he'd recovered, laid off the booze, and came in much better shape.

A banger for sure! iirc it was actually voted round of the year (Williams-Foster II round 3 was I believe #3).

 

Patterson had tremendous heart, so he would never give up and often got up after he was floored. But he was still a very chinny fighter.

I mean I don't remember another Heavyweight champion, who was on the canvas as frequently as Patterson. So his chin was definitely a weakness.

But combined with his incredible fighting heart, he had tremendous speed and the peek a boo defence. Which was beneficial for him having that weakness.

But against Liston he probably froze, due to the fear factor and not truly believing he could beat Liston. I'm not saying even if he wasn't intimidated that it would make a difference, but that certainly isn't gonna help as mental part of boxing is huge, if your mind ain't right and you aren't confident that's all she wrote.