Liston Vs. Small Greats - Would You Favor...

Well i can fathom this different take a lot better. If you have a problem with rating him due to the Ali fights then that's understandable. You're certainly not alone. Marshall and Martin however have no place in a fair appraisal. Clay was knocked down by Cooper who was bugger all bigger than Marshall, and we saw how much that mattered in the general scheme of things. Schmeling only weighed 192 as well.

 

.... which all goes to suggest that being "small" doesn't matter too much anyway.

 

To a point. Can't see Ali or Liston being stopped by any 180 pounders anywhere near their best myself.

 

While these are good points, I think it fair to also point out that Schmeling and Charles were among the best fighters in the world while Marshall and Martin were at best second-tier contenders and not in the same class.

 

So you'd hold up Marshall in Liston's 8th professional fight and Martin in his second last fight as pertinent and unbiased barometers?

 

I think the Marshall and Martin loss have a little impact on Liston's legacy. Not a lot but a little. Liston was a good amateur. He lost to a skinny Marshall not known for power. While he was older, the Martin KO loss was devastating. Liston was out cold for at least a minute...similar to what Roy Jones looked like.

 

A little, but certainly not much. He came back to whup Marshall twice and was most likely done in by the broken jaw in the first fight, no small drama.

As far as the Martin loss, does being out for at least a mnute mean anything really? I mean, some fighters have tragically never woken up, but does this mean anything to their legacy? There are lots of things going on, and Liston took many huge punches in his pomp very well.

 

I'm not really sure how far off his best Clay was when he fought Cooper the 1st time.

But I dont "see" Ali being stopped by ANYONE near his best, 180 pound or otherwise.
He got decked by Cooper in 1963, and I can see a '66-'67 version getting decked by a Dempsey, Marciano etc. possibly.

As for Liston, he was decked by Marshall when he was a raw prospect, but Marshall is many degrees below many fighters of similar size throughout history. Liston got better, but it's not Marshall who'd be the "180 pound" threat to a peak Liston, it's the best "small" fighters in history (Dempsey, Marciano, Tunney, Langford, Holyfield etc.)
A "peak" Liston was possible to hit solidly at times and stun too, I read that Howard King stunned him. Folley "jarred" him. I saw 5'11, 190 pound journeyman Whitehurst catch him with a solid overhand right (if Bert can land solidly then a better fighter should be able to too ?). These guys weren't massive punchers, nor were they especially big.

 

I think Liston chin was good and battle tested, but I would not call it great. Your points are solid. One hidden fact about Liston is he wasn't that hard to mark up / cut. Williams cut him and busted his nose in one round. Ali cut him. I think Liston had some minor cuts in other fights where he was doing most of the landing.

 

I think Liston's chin was very solid too, and I think he was very good at firing back, and covering up, once tagged.

As far as I know, he was never in severe distress in any fight until the Martin one, where he was knocked cold.
Even against Williams he was "clear-headed" and "in control" while under heavy attack.

But just like 99.9% of fighters, he WAS possible to catch off balance, "stun" momemtarily, and "jar", SOMETIMES, and he did bruise and cut as you say.

Despite his massive reach, good small fighters with short arms DID manage to tag him cleanly sometimes. (This would be real encouragement to a GREAT fighter lacking reach.)

And ANY MAN is possible to hurt if hit with the correct punch or correct sequence of punches.

Some of the best 180-190 pounders in history would be real threats to Liston, others would go the same way as Floyd Patterson. I think the same applies to the best 220+ pound men in history, some would be real threats, others would be destroyed.
That's the essence of it.

 

1. Tunney was no ali, nowhere even close. Tunney had nowhere near the rythm, unpredictable footwork, heaad movement , handspeed of ALI. Personally I think people get manipulated by Tunneys record. when you look in depth into it, it really wasnt that hot.

2. Liston was nowhere near his best when he fought ali. Say what you want about the Patterson destruction. He looked soft in patterson II fight compared to other fights. Party life, LACK OF RING ACTIVITY were catching up to liston.

 

Taking Flush Bombs from Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez, Mike Dejohn, Hell even floyd patterson without blinking is enough to prove his chin as great to me.

 

How about Sam Langford? Some people here have never seen even so much as a photograph of the guy, but they're fairly certain he can knock the **** out of a 20 ft tall 2 ton cyclops.