Liston Vs. Small Greats - Would You Favor...

Very funny,

Hey this is getting kind of boring. Should we go make trouble in the general forum?

How about starting a thread like say, Willie Pep KO 1 Floyd Mayweather? Or maybe, Cleveland Williams humps Wladimir Klitschko?

 

What the hell, its an idea. I've gotten to the point where I've run out of things to talk about anymore. Perhaps thats how trolls are made, and I never knew it.

 

Liston used to stand on his neck for hours doing neck rolls, he developed an 18" neck. This workout of his neck enabled him to take heavy blows, because he built a shock absorber around the bulk of his neck.

 

Yeah, I remember seeing footage of Liston training on a documentary years ago. He was doing neck bridges and some kind of explosive squat jump (it resembled a cossack kick dance a bit but looked far more demanding, they'd call it "plyometrics" nowadays). The man was tremendously powerful, and during his contender years he was a beast in training.
Guys who start boxing in jail often get used to the harshest training regimens.

 

No I made it up April Fools

 

Ya Liston was a freak. I am a college wrestler and do neck crunches everyday but even i can't compare to the way he did them. Check the film, there is film of him doing crunches standing on his neck. its virtually impossible to do for the average man

 

No. As another poster put it "Marshall is many degrees below many fighters of similar size throughout history."

Louis was fighting much better men, in my judgement, in Schmeling and Charles than Liston was in Marshall and Martin.

 

This reply is not likely to appear since the poster who its to, has placed me on his ignore list, but here goes.

The difference between Louis losing to Schmeling early in his career and Liston losing to Marshall, is that Liston had only 8 pro fights against Marshall, whereas Louis had 27 going in against Schmeling and was actually a favorite to win. Another difference is that Louis got pounded for 12 rounds, whereas Liston was fighting rather well, until something occurred that caused Liston to laugh to the point where he had his mouth open and his silliness caused him to get tagged with a shot that broke his jaw. Now Schmeling was a much better fighter than Marshall by all accounts, but there is also a huge difference between having only 8 pro bouts and 27 going in against a more experienced fighter, plus factoring the circumstances that I just provided.

That said, I still believe Louis to be the much better fighter.

 

I think Louis and Liston would the the # 1 megafight to determine the greatest ever. I think it would be a toss up. Louis is certainly not a much better fighter than liston. I give louis the slight edge to due have superior all around punching skills and faster handspeed, but liston is a live choice with his strength, jab.

 

Size wise, it's not just Marshall and Martin who were able to compete with Sonny among the sub 200 pounders. Whitehurst and Machen were also able to go the distance with a peak Liston. (Whitehurst twice, although barely the second time.)

Gene Tunney was about as big as a sub 200 pounder could be, tough as nails, extremely well conditioned, and very possibly the most intelligent of all the heavyweight champions. Only Dempsey was able to drop him, and Sonny did not share Jack's handspeed. By the time he took out Henry Clark, Liston was noticably aging, huffing and puffing near the end (as Cosell observed from ringside) but did show that he still had something left after Martin, dropping Wepner with a fifth round bodyshot before slicing Chuck to ribbons.

I have a difficult time envisioning Sonny punching Gene out, as nobody ever came close to doing this, and I can't see Liston decisioning Tunney over the distance. I look at Tunney/Gibbons, and picture Gene lashing out with three to four jabs between each one Sonny attempts. Liston would need X-ray vision to see through Tunney's left fist perpetually glued to his face. If Sonny did somehow manage to get Gene in trouble, Whitehurst proved that the peak Liston was hardly an infallible finisher. Tunney was no Whitehurst.

Neither was the Ole' Mongoose, who needed only one attempt to do to Dr. Whitehurst what Liston failed to do twice. (Archie took out Bert in the match immediately preceding Whitehurst's first one with Sonny.) Of course Archie never had any trouble trashing heavyweights weighing 200 pounds or more during his career, going 23 (16 KO)-1-1 in such matches. (In fact, Ali was the only 200 pounder to ever defeat Moore. Rugged Karel Sys managed to sneak away with a 1951 draw while on a nine year undefeated streak, but he was a last minute substitute, one of the very few opponents during Archie's prime who could match Moore's experience, the reigning EBU HW Champion, and possibly Europe's best heavyweight between Schmeling and Ingo. This was the first time Sys weighed in as high as 200 pounds. They never had a rematch. Archie just beat the **** out of the other big boys.)

Sonny's jab could wind up going right over Moore's head. Right before Moore took on young Clay, he drew with Pastrano, indicating that he never forgot how to neutralize a great jab. Peak Archie would have had a major experience advantage over Liston. He was not at all adverse to going down when in trouble to take a break from punishment. I don't know that he'd beat Sonny, but I would not bet on Liston to take Archie out either. Marciano swarmed Moore into submission, while Patterson caught him in the worst performance of his prime years, and cut him down with short, quick, precision marksmanship. Sonny wasn't noted for either trait.

Billy Conn himself might admit he was too "Irish" and "thick" to stay out of trouble with Sonny.

Jersey Joe and Ezz could be miserably clever *******s to deal with, and bait Sonny into trap, after trap, after trap, after trap. Of course they'd be going for a decision win, and if Liston nailed them, he'd take them out. The trouble is that Walcott and Charles would understand that as well.

During Sonny's brief title reign, both light heavyweight champions might have given him many more headaches than anybody suspects. Willie Pastrano and Harold Johnson each had a massive edge in experience over Sonny. Harold held impressive wins over ATG heavyweights, stepped into the ring three times with Bob Satterfield, routinely trashed Liston in sparring sessions, and was one of the few men on earth apparently completely unafraid of Sonny. (And Liston may have been unnerved by those few boxers he could not intimidate.) It's not hard for me to imagine Harold fearlessly slipping and countering Sonny's jab for 15 rounds. Johnson collapsed against Walcott without being hit (due to an injured disk), got stopped by a peak Moore in 14 rounds of a very close fight (after putting Archie on the deck), had the requisite off-night against Oakland Billy Smith following the stoppage loss to Moore, then was not close to being stopped again from his nadir year of 1954 until his swan song in 1971 (at age 42, after a three year hiatus).

Pastrano lost on a cut to Brian London, and got floored by a vicious liver shot from Jose Torres, but his chin may have been impervious to anything Liston could land on it. In 84 fights, apparently only Torres was able to drop him, in his final bout. Willie would have had youth, speed, experience, and a much faster jab in his favor. Harold failed to slow Willie down with his dedicated counterpunching to Pastrano's body, and Liston had nowhere near Johnson's technical proficiency and speed. (Then again, how many did?) Unlike Johnson, Willie would have lived up to his first name, jabbing and running as though he was scared shitless of Sonny, something which would not help Liston's cause against this particular opponent one bit.

Do not forget that Angelo Dundee lurked in Willie's corner, and bad things happened to Sonny when Angie was hanging out across the ring.

How about a middleweight who might take Liston? The fearless and filthy Harry Greb could make life miserable for his plodding quarry. Opening blow of round one would be a headbutt in Sonny's face. Then, one-eyed Harry would even the odds with a quick thumb in one of Liston's eyes. Then, who knows what the hell could happen next?