Liston Vs. Small Greats - Would You Favor...

:good

 

Amazing post Lobotomy but one thing I would like to add is Johnson-Walcott "slipped disc" is a common misconception. Walcott legit knocked out johnson, I have a fight article which states he knocked johnson down in the 2nd round and it wasnt until then that johnson got injured......most likely from walcott knocking him down and walcott beat the snot out of johnson in the 3rd round until johnson collasped. I think Walcott deserves most of the credit there.


Very insightful post though.... I think Moore, Walcott, Johnson, match up best vs Liston while Tunney, Schmeling, and Charles match up the least.

 

Excellent post (though I tend to doubt that most of those guys would actually have serious chances against Liston). A slight correction- Moore was actually 23-1-1 with 19 KOs against 200+ pound heavyweights. It's fascinating that his knockout percentage actually went up with the size of his opposition.

 

Yes, but IMO it balances out by Louis being in much better career shape at the time he fought both. Louis was a heavily established star name when beaten by the underdog Schmeling and had some top career wins behind him. Sonny at the time of Marshall was a nobody with next to no professional boxing behind him. I really wonder if the broken jaw played it's part too, Sonny stopping Marshall and also beating him 9-1 within the next 18 months certainly adds some credibility to the thought.

Regarding the Charles loss vs Martin, Louis was still the world champion, but by contrast Liston had not won the title for 6 years. The rumours still persist that he was considerably older than his claimed 36 at the time. Regardless the man was way over the hill.

To be honest Sonny's loss to Marshall means nothing to me. Louis' loss to Max is a bigger mark for mine, but one i look past as i fully believe Louis turned into a much better fighter after, and for the loss. I view Louis' loss to Charles as simply him ready to be taken by a very decent fighter, much like Holmes was beaten by Spinks, tho he sure came back in the rematch. Regardless neither fight is to be held seriously against them by any reasonable judge.

I'm not trying to put The Bear above Louis, simply trying to look after his due. For the Marshall and Martin losses being held against him is rubbish as far as i am concerned.

 

No one ever came close to outpunching my 7 year old niece either, that doesn't mean it can't happen. Tunney's opposition at heavyweight was **** and shallow. Dempsey was old, rusty, came off a three year lay off and still nearly knocked him out in the rematch. How many skilled 210+lbs fighters did Tunney beat?

I suppose a fat, 5'8" Tom Heeney comes closest.

 

That's right, ChrisP.

 

I strongly agree.

 

To be fair to Tunney, that combo from Dempsey was brutal.

Also, I think Tunney's durability, courage and skill was proven enough to say it would be an ACHIEVEMENT to knock him out. If he stepped in the ring with a Liston-type fighter and got blasted out, we'd give that fighter a fair degree of credit - based on Tunney's previous record.
Probably more credit that Liston KOing Patterson, who had been KO'd before and decked numerous times.

 

And I'm perfectly satisfied to defer to the validity of your information, as my documentation is somewhat sketchy on this. Of course, getting taken out by Jersey Joe at that stage of Walcott's career is hardly an indicator of extreme vulnerability, and Walcott always deserves full credit for his achievements.

Agreed. Gene's upright stance would have made him more of a target for Liston's ramrod, requiring Gene to use his mobility very effectively. Charles didn't have Tunney's jab, size or toughness. Schmeling wasn't aggressive enough to outpoint Sonny, though I'd give him a good chance at going a full 15 with his calculated, cautious counterpunching.

 

Thanks. It's just an effort to stimulate some quality discussion. Whatever the outcome of these fantasy pairings, they may have been a good deal more interesting than a pair of single round blowouts over a two year period (as eveybody seems to have expected Liston/Patterson to become). The heavyweight championship ought to be a showcase, not an abbreviated and anticlimatic farce. (At least Floyd's previous title fights were exciting and unpredictable, if the quality of his opposition was sometimes questionable.)

Correction much appreciated. (I suppose that's one advantage of relying on a living source of information like boxwreck.com, as opposed to stagnant paper literature, although you probably employed more reliable literary sources than I, rather than simply checking internet sites.)

I wish Moore's autobiography could be widely introduced to a new generation of fans, with an informative afterward newly added, to reaffirm just what an amazing athlete and person he was. (Angelo Dundee may have been in Foreman's corner for Moorer, but it was Archie who started George on his historic comeback, a remarkable character right to the end.) It seems a shame sometimes, how autobigraphies often pass away with their extraordinary authors. Moore claimed to have written his without a ghostwriter, and considering his manner of speaking, this is perfectly believable. After Ali retired, he admitted that Archie was the one opponent who out trash talked him.

 

That's because his available heavyweight opposition was that way, and was guaranteed to remain so until after Gene retired and Tex Rickard died.

No, I don't believe Tunney was close to being finished off by Dempsey, and it looked to me as if Gene could have gotten up about as quickly as Ali did in the FOTC, or Holmes did against Shavers. However, I do interpret that action as evidence a peak Dempsey could have produced a stoppage win over the still improving Tunney of the Heeney fight. Dempsey's counter right over Gene's jab and follow up knockdown hook were as deadly a pair of punches as anybody ever came up from to win. (Dempsey's "killer instinct" was amazing. He knew instantly that his devastating attack wouldn't be nearly enough to finish Gene off, so he tried to hover over Tunney. He always knew when to walk away from a beaten adversary, and when to anticipate his foe beating the ten count.)

Or would have ever had the opportunity to with Rickard controlling the title?

Well, Sharkey had his second chance to get a title shot when paired with Tom, and blew it with a draw, giving Heeney the bid. (This is rather unfortunate, as Rickard might not have lost money for the first and only time with Tunney/Sharkey for the title. It's kind of pathetic, the way Sharkey usually screwed up or fell short of the mark, whenever he tried stepping up in class.)

After Tunney retired and Rickard died, Tommy Loughran was the stylistic successor to Gene who proved the viability of Gene's approach against big men. He lacked Tunney's power, height, reach, physical strength and chin, yet he was able to outbox the speedy Sharkey (avenging the greatest knockout win of Sharkey's career), lethal Max Baer, Impelletiere, Hamas, Godoy, Levinski and Campolo, among others, even as he aged into his 30s. Many would consider Tommy's displays of skill against the larger heavyweights of the 1930s as the best possible representation of how Gene would have looked against the same opposition, but with significant and sustainable power.

 

tom heeney was a joke of a fighter. he didnt deserve a title shot with a fluke draw vs sharkey that everyone thought sharkey won.


6'4 225lb Hall of fame George Godfrey top rated, hall of famer jack sharkey were both the top studs in the division and tunney instead of fighting one of the hall of famers in there primes chose a fat ham an egger

 

Your point seems to be that Liston had a much shorter "prime" and therefore defeats to better fighters at the same age should be held more against Louis than against Liston. I don't follow the logic.

It is true that Liston was fighting Marshall in his 8th pro fight one year after turning pro. Louis fought Stanley Poreda who had been ranked the #3 contender in 1932 and held wins over Carnera, Loughran, and Schaaf, in his 10th fight five months after turning pro. Louis knocked Poreda out in the first round. Louis was still about 7 months short of his 21st birthday.

Any fight a man has matters to me as to how these fighters did "outside their primes" and to whom they lost to. I rate Louis right at the top along with Ali. He lost only as a very young and very old man to men who were among the best in the world. Liston also lost young and old, but to men who were a notch below Schmeling, Charles, and Marciano. I rank Liston a solid level below Louis, a top ten heavyweight but not a top two or even a top five man.

 

What's up Duodenum?

 

Jack Drees mentioned that knockout several times when Johnson fought on TV, saying it was caused by Johnson twisting on the ropes in an effort to escape just as Walcott threw a left hook to the body, thus causing a spinal injury. The same thing happened to Schmeling in the second fight against Louis.