Liston vs. Smokin Joe ???

Definitely- and growing old (well, even older) overnight. Clay fought brilliantly nonetheless.

 

Yeah, but actually saying "take my gloves off" and allowing Dundee to do so, are two entirely separate entities for me.

 

I believe the only justification for Mercante's poor handling of this fight was to ensure that the final outcome would be decided by the fighters and not by the ref.

In the first round of Frazier vs Foreman I, Foreman grabs both of Frazier's shoulders and shoves him aside 4 times inside the first 30 seconds. Also, Foreman hit Frazier underneath with a right to the body while pushing down on Frazier's shoulder with his left hand. What is legal about those tactics? Lewis got away with the Foreman hitting underneath technique big time against Michael Grant and should have been warned as well.

I remember Mercante warning Foreman once in the beginning of the second round to no effect. He sure didn't look like he had control of the fight especially after the fact when Dick Saddler came up on the apron in the middle of the round waving to get his attention. What happens next is Frazier turns his back anticipating a clean break and then Foreman starts shoving again and unloading bombs.

Notice in the first round of Manilla, Carlos Padilla put an immediate stop to Ali holding Frazier behind the ahead which Tony Perez completely pulled a blind eye as in the second fight.

It's boxing, not wrestling.

 

Ali was ready to quit on his stool in Manilla. Dundee was the only person who ignored Ali in the corner preparing him for the 15th round and Dr. Pacheco confirmed this on several different sporting interviews. Ali was quoted as saying "Cut these f---ing things off, I ain't going back out there, that man's crazy." Willie "The Worm" Monroe was in the Ali's corner at ringside and heard him utter the exact same words. Even though Futch stopped Frazier and justifiably so after the 14th round, Ali collapsing in his corner makes me think that he wouldn't have come out for the 15th.

Still one of the greatest fights ever

 

It's called boxing, but it is fist-fighting in its purest form and pushing can occur. It was hard for Mercante to step in between both guys because punches were coming straight after the pushes and Foreman was decking him often.

If the ref can't get a hold of the fight that is his problem, but either way, Foreman had it in for Frazier that night.

 

Good post. That incident, if it happened, came after Round 10. This was changed to Round 14 years later because, hey, it's a better story.

 

Oh dear. :-(

 

Did Dr. Ferdie Pacheco himself change the story? In different interviews I've seen with him, he clearly states that after the 14th round, Ali wanted his gloves cut off and kept protesting that he wasn't going to finish the fight. Only Dundee ignored him and prepared him for the 15th. Willie "The Worm" Monroe was sitting at ringside in Ali's corner and heard the exact same words. In fact, Pacheco said he was fearful of Padilla coming to Ali's corner and hearing the conversation, but Padilla did his job and went to Frazier's corner first because he was the loser of the round, checking on the fighter that was clearly taking more punishment.

About the 11th round, Ali asked his corner how much more he could take and what more does he have to do stop Frazier. Frazier had decent rounds in the 10th and 11th and correct me if I'm wrong that's when Ali said it was the closest he felt like dying. Dundee and Dr. Pacheco told him to start throwing more right hands and dig deep, which Ali did. He turned the tide in the 12th because Frazier's left eye was closing rapidly which left him vulnerable to the right hand. He had to take a step back in order to see it coming which meant that he needed to stand up rather than crouching low and working the body.

 

Whatever Ali said, he threw plenty of leather in the 13th & 14th. Frazier was a sitting duck and he must have known victory was imminent. In the 10th or 11th, not so much.

 

Back to the original post though, as for Liston vs Frazier, see Liston vs Patterson. Sonny excelled with guys who came to him.

 

sonny wins this one inside of 5 rounds easily

 

Patterson could have done better both times IMO. Fear killed him before the fights even started. For a guy that has arguably faster hands than Ali, I thought he could have moved and boxed a little better.

Frazier, however would put a whole lot of pressure on Sonny and he'd be a lot harder to hit with his head movement. Joe's underrated body attack would be the difference in a match with Liston.

Frazier by KO inside 10 rounds.