Liston without Ali

Definitley not Cleveland Williams.

I think he would have reigned for awhile. Sonny couldve beaten most of those guys on his raw power. He may have gotten cocky and not trained like he should and been upset by one of them.

Had he kept the title long enough to face a Joe Frazier around `67 or `68 it would have been interesting because Sonny wouldve been older but also he never lived a clean life so his condition might have been worse than his actual age.

He would have been viewed as one of the top 3 or 4 heavyweights of alltime had Ali not come along.

How many other heavyweights would have lost to a 21 year old Muhammad Ali? It was the way Sonny Liston lost that hurts his legacy.

 

Liston would have been champion until Joe Frazier ****ed him up.

 

Good Question,

Without the 'Young' and 'Professionally Backed' Cassius Clay around -

Sonny was only looking for 'three' or 'four' Title Defenses anyway, and had planned
to retire by the end of 1965.

If we eliminate Mr. Clay in 1964, and replace him with;
* February 1964 -----Eddie Machen
* June 1964---------Doug Jones
* November 1964----Henry Cooper
* February 1965-----George Chuvalo
* June 1965---------Ernie Terrell
* November 1965----Zora Folley

That should have done it.

 

Quarry would take Liston out if he got to him before Frazier. Liston would be top 5 on everyones list and considered way more formidable than he is now and Jerry Quarry would be rated much higher on the outskirts of the top 10.

 

Hold on there Smitty,,,,

If Tony Doyle could 'out-strength' Jerry Quarry in November 1965,,,,,,

Then 'Old-Man' Sonny would have had no problem with the 'west-coast-based banger',
providing they fought in 1966/1967/1968.

 

I'm surprised no one picked George Chuvalo.
Considering we are talking about Sonny AFTER he won the belt, and not the gy who destroyed the division on his way to winning, Chuvalo seems like a likely candidate.
George was maybe the one fighter on the list that Sonny couldn't have knocked out, a fighter who would keep pressure on the champ for 15 rounds.
With the well documented...ummm..."flaws" in Sonny's training regimen, I think 15 against Chuvalo would have been too much.
Maybe Sonny is upset about the loss enough to train hard and win a rematch....

 

The way Liston quit against Clay, I guess he would have lost to the first guy who could frustrate him for a few rounds and avoid getting knocked out.
Ernie Terrell or Eddie Machen might well do it.

 

There's no way Liston would have stayed champion long enough for Frazier to be ready to challenge him. I see an ageing Sonny being outpointed by Ernie Terrel around 1966.

 

Sonny Liston sparring with Ernie Terrell in 1962, in Chicago, prior to the Floyd Patterson Title bout.

In June 1965, 'Old Man' Sonny would have still 'steam-rolled' Ernie Terrell.
By an 8th Round 'no-knockdown' TKO.

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I don't think any of those guys would beat Sonny. Only father time would eventually catch up with him, as it does with all fighters. Clay/Ali was the perfect foil for Sonny, but no one else was on that level in terms of style, size, speed, footwork, defense, chin, clinching ability, and overall talent.

 

I fall into the camp of those who think Sonny's drinking and lifestyle would have gotten to him sooner rather than later, and he probably would have been upset about 1965 or 1966.

How would this effect his legacy.

Well, a loss to an ordinary fighter might cause him to have fallen a lot further in public esteem than his losses to the extraordinary Ali did.

It is hard to say.

 

6I don't think Sonny Liston should be 'discounted' so easily,,,,,,,

In 1964 and 1965, Sonny was still the 'second best heavyweight' out there.

And we all know, those '2 bouts with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali were 'tainted'
beyond belief.

If there was no Muhammad Ali,,,,,,can't see Sonny fighting beyond 1965.

Using the computer;
February 1964 - 36 1/2 year-old (correct age) Sonny defeats Eddie Machen by Decision (9-5-1).
The 217 lb. 'bulky' Champion is far from impressive in 'lumbering' 15-Rounds against a 'slick-boxer''.
Though Liston wins, it is Eddie Machen who impresses the fans with his 'slickness' and counter-punching ability.
The Champion piled up a 'big points lead' through 10, by using his 'pole-like' jab, but the fast boxer from
the Northwest brings the fans to their feet, with a 'blistering flurry in Round 11, as he stings the
'slow' Champion time and again.

Machen maintains his 'fast-pace' in Rounds 11 thru 15, as he sweeps the last '5' Rounds on all cards.
The 'fast-aging Champion' is the recipient of a mouthful of left jabs over the last third of the bout,
which puff-up his lips. The boxing pundits come to the obvious conclusion, Sonny is on the on the downhill side
of the mountain.

June 1964 - Sonny defeats Doug Jones by TKO 10 (Jones can't answer the bell for Round 11)

November 1964 - Sonny by (KO 4) over 'Sir' Henry Cooper in London.

February 1965- Sonny batters George Chuvalo's face, enroute to a wide decision win
(W Dec 15) in Toronto, Canada. {Scorecard; 12-2-1}

June 1965- Sonny 'steam-rolls' #1 Ernie Terrell by TKO 8. No-knockdowns, but Sonny
batters the 'bean-pole' Terrell from the 4th Round on, after Terrell boxers 'nicely' for the
First '3' Rounds. Terrell is saved from further punishment by the Referee mid-way through
the 8th Round in a bout held in Las Vegas.

November 1965 - In a bout in Denver, Sonny's home-base. Liston says farewell, with a
solid KO 7 over 'long-time contender' Zora Folley. Sonny {correct age of 38}, starts off slow,
but picks up the pace in Round 5 as Folley starts to fade from the heavy punches.
Sonny floors Zora 'twice' in Round 6, for 8-Counts. In the final 7th-round, Sonny batters
Zora into a corner, and then drops the 35 year-old veteran with a left-right-left to the head.