Liston's victims vs Holmes' victims

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010.


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  1. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    It's hard to judge this objectively, since the outcome heavily depends on who you match with who. Obviously you take the version of the fighter that Holmes/Liston fought at that time. Listing the beaten opposition from good to bad would roughly produce this:

    Liston's victims
    1. Patterson I
    2. Machen
    3. Cleveland Williams
    4. Folley
    5. Harris
    6. DeJohn
    7. Valdes
    8. Bethea
    9. Besmanoff
    10.Marshall
    11.Whitehurst
    12.Wepner

    Holmes' victims
    1. Norton
    2. Witherspoon
    3. Cooney
    4. Mercer
    5. Shavers
    6. Weaver
    7. Carl Williams
    8. Cobb
    9. Snipes
    10.Berbick
    11.Smith
    12.Butterbean :)hey)


    Matching them in that order gives:

    1. Patterson vs Norton
    2. Machen vs Witherspoon
    3. Cleveland Williams vs Cooney
    4. Folley vs Mercer
    5. Shavers vs Harris
    6. DeJohn vs Weaver
    7. Carl Williams vs Valdes (old)
    8. Bethea vs Cobb
    9. Besmanoff vs Snipes
    10.Marshall vs Berbick (green)
    11.Whitehurst vs Smith
    12.Wepner vs Butterbean (oh boy)

    Your predictions?
     
    ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010
    ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010
    #1
  2. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    I don't think this is the best way to analyse comp or fighters ability but here goes (off the top of my head)

    1. Patterson vs Norton
    2. Machen vs Witherspoon
    3. Cleveland Williams vs Cooney
    4. Folley vs Mercer
    5. Shavers vs Harris
    6. DeJohn vs Weaver
    7. Carl Williams vs Valdes (old)
    8. Bethea vs Cobb
    9. Besmanoff vs Snipes
    10.Marshall vs Berbick (green)
    11.Whitehurst vs Smith
    12.Wepner vs Butterbean (oh boy)
     
    PowerPuncher, Jun 16, 2010
    PowerPuncher, Jun 16, 2010
    #2
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Butterbean :lol:
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 16, 2010
    Unforgiven, Jun 16, 2010
    #3
  4. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Frankly, I think that given the selected versions of the fighters listed, and the match-ups that are in question, I think Holmes' opponents probably come out on top in a lot of these fights.. Just to name a few, I think a 1978 Norton could probably take a 1962 Patterson. Williams outboxes the aged Valdez. Witherspoon KO's or widely decsions Machen.. Roy Harris is no match for Earnie Shavers. I'll also take a 19 fight Berbick to beat Marty Marshal. Williams and Cooney get into an exchange early, and while Gerry couldn't take much of a clobbering, neither could Williams, only Cooney was probably the faster starter. Mike Weaver from 1979 to 1982, was a better fighter than Dejohn was.
     
    mr. magoo, Jun 16, 2010
    mr. magoo, Jun 16, 2010
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  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: This is a proper old-school thread. I'll give it a go.

    PATTERSON to beat Norton. Norton could catch lightning in a bottle of course, but I don't think he's quite physical enough to properly utilise his size advantage and I don't think he's gifted enough to neutalise Patterson's speed advantage. I'd be very interested to see how Patterson would approach this one, but he'd be my pick.

    WITHERSPOON to beat Machen. To good that night. Machen was out-boxed by the best boxers and out-muscled or punched by the best punchers he faced...so favour Witherspoon on a best for best basis. Machen's longevity in those circumstances though, wow.

    WILLIAMS to beat Cooney. It is a toss a coin type fight. Whoever lands the heavy artilary first would likely come up roses in this one. My guess is Williams.

    FOLLEY to beat Mercer on points.

    SHAVERS V Harris? Is a really hard pick, really hard. Peak for peak, I don't think I would make a pick, I'm going with Shavers here because I think that Harris was on the slide when Liston pole-axed him in 1.

    WEAVER to out-point DeJohn. This is another close one, but I lean to Weaver on points. DeJohn was a tougher nut to crack than his KO losses lead us to believe, I reckon. These are hard picks and no fun now.

    WILLIAMS to beat old Valdes.

    BETHEA to out-point Cobb. Cobb just not slick enough to shade Bethea. This one could be fun.

    Besmanoff would lose to Snipes, but i'd substitie CLARK for Bessie here (he always gets forgotten on the forum!), and i'd pick him to beat Snipes. So, a point for Holmes on your list, a point for Liston on mine.

    I'll pick Berbick to beat Marshall, but who knows? Marshall was weird enough that he would set some very strange problems for a young Berbick...in fact, i'll call this one a DRAW. I'm allowed one.

    SMITH to beat Whitehurst.

    WEPNER to beat Bean.



    So I think that is 6-5 Liston if you allow the Clark substitution.
     
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    #5
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    chris..I will contribute to the thread in a second,

    but I don't think Roy Harris should be over Nino Valdes. Valdes had too much size, power, jab for Harris. I also don't think Mike DeJohn should be over Nino Valdes, when Valdes beat him 2x the year before he fought Liston.

    Also Chris,

    You completely left off Henry Clark from liston's list, who was a ranked 6'3 215lb fighter. I would easily put him over Besmanoff.


    Also, you left off Johnny Summerlin, a good contender in the mid 1950s whom I would easily place over Besmanoff.


    I would go like this


    Liston's victims
    1. Patterson I
    2. Machen
    3. Cleveland Williams
    4. Folley
    5. Valdes
    6. DeJohn
    7. Harris
    8. Bethea
    9. Summerlin
    10. Clark
    11. Besmanoff
    12. Marshall
    11. Hunter- Top 10 rated in 1959
    12. Wepner
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 16, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Jun 16, 2010
    #6
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, I think Summerlin should be in there somewhere too. Hunter is a very interesting shout.
     
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    #7
  8. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Sure. Nothing is set in stone... I just provided a list to start with, because most people often are too LAZY and don't bother if they can't just fill in the blanks! Feel free to take your own lists/matchups as you like.

    this is not an analysis on who beat better opponents, just an interesting starting point for discussion on the matchups.

    The first two things that spring to mind:
    1. I think Mercer has a good chance to stop Folley. Zora was an excellent boxer, but he wasn't the most durable of boxers and Mercer with his pressure style and power would pose problems.

    2. Machen might have a better chance vs Witherspoon than most think. True, he did often come up short against the better opponents, but then again, Witherspoon looked poor during almost all of his fights except for that 16th one for the title...
     
    ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010
    ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010
    #8
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is exactly how I see it. If Machen was coming up against Witherspoon as a matter of course, I'd pick Machen, but using the "on the night" versions you have to go with Spoon.
     
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    #9
  10. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Can´t see Patterson losing to Norton. Patterson has the speed to befuddle him and the punch to hurt him. And the defense to survive him. Patterson UD is how I see it. But IMO Norton is overrated due to his style-match-up with guys like Ali and Holmes.
     
    bodhi, Jun 16, 2010
    bodhi, Jun 16, 2010
    #10
  11. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Holmes' comp was slightly better and tougher.......:shock::think:deal:bbb

    MR.BILL:hat
     
    MRBILL, Jun 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jun 16, 2010
    #11
  12. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Put down the Jack D and tell us what you think about the matchups, Bill.
     
    ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010
    ChrisPontius, Jun 16, 2010
    #12
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    :lol:
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 16, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Jun 16, 2010
    #13
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Really,

    Its time for Mr. Bill to stop eating chips, drinking beer, and ripping farts off the couch to reruns of starsky and Hutch, so that he can give us some insite.


    This content is protected
     
    mr. magoo, Jun 16, 2010
    mr. magoo, Jun 16, 2010
    #14
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I love Bill just the way he is!
     
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    McGrain, Jun 16, 2010
    #15
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