Lists Please!!!!!

atsch atsch :yikes

 

Top 10 Heavies:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

Lennox was recently bumped up in my list, so it messed the list up a little, still working it out.

I am still thinking over my P4P list.

 

One of the better lists I have seen. Just one question. Why no Jeffries?

 

SRR: Fought and beat guys bigger than himself (his skills transcend weight)

Armstrong: Triple Crown Champion Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight.

Pep: It was late and as I think about it while awake it should have been Walcott (the lightweight not the heavyweight) he fought and won against all weight classes.

 

Actually I was thinking of voting for Teddy and his Bullmoose Party.

 

All right. On Carpentier being rated ahead of Louis or Tunney--I see your point about him dominating European boxing but he was a pioneer at the point in which European boxing was just getting started. Who did he have to defeat to win French championships from fly (which in fact means he was champion as an inexperienced boy) all the way up to heavyweight (and Carp was never a heavy). This might be more a sign of weakness than competition. His record against world class fighters, such as Papke, Klaus, Dixie Kid, Jeannette, Dempsey, Siki, Gibbons, Tunney, and Loughran was of failure more often than success. His big wins were over the frequently defeated Battling Levinsky and the much smaller Ted Kid Lewis as well as ordinary Brit heavies Wells and Beckett.

On balance, I see no way his spotty record against top competition all the way through his career could justify placing him over Joe Louis, who in fact defeated better European competition than Carp did, or Tunney, among many others.

 

Well that was a well thought out, intelligent and informative post. My eyes are opened as I gaze upon the holy grail of boxing wisdom.

 

I guess I should explain how I measure P4P. In my mind the best measuring stick for a P4P fighter is if they had the skills to overcome weight. While this is then slanted to smaller guys it still gives a measurement to view P4P as opposed to projecting subjectively how they would have done at any certain weight.

 

I agree. Carpentier never had the kind of elite-level success, in any weight class, that these guys did.
By the way, what did you think of my response to your questions?

 

Alright , just please tell , why do you have Fitzimmons above Greb, Robinson, Langford and Ali. You also have both Dempseys above Pep aswell

 

On Wills:
1. Beating fading opponents--he also beat all of them near their primes-most of the other men on your list probably got an opponent or two past their best--I don't think that much of this criticism.
2. Beat the same men over and over--I think this is much more valid. I don't think beating one top man five times is quite the same as beating five different top men.
On balance, as usual, you made a good case.

On Dempsey:
1. He blew a lot of men, some top men like Fulton, some good men who were past their best, and some tomato-cans, out in 1918-1919, but I wouldn't consider this the best run ever because of the draw with Miske, who was, after all, probably the best man he was facing.
Otherwise I agree, and I also think Dempsey's performances in 1927 against Sharkey and Tunney not only add to, but are vital to, his resume. I think these were his two toughest heavyweight opponents and had he flopped, he would have to be marked down quite a bit.

 

:blood I am getting more and more suspicious of you.

 

But you hit the nail on the head at the start, he was a pioneer and achieved records that no one has beaten yet, that is an amazing feat for a pioneer.

Carpentier IMO, is one of them fighters in history you use as a yard stick.

Do not get me wrong Tunney kicks his regal French butt, ditto pound for pound Louis, but Carpentier made boxing in Western Europe popular, and helped directly or indirectly the future fighters from that area, and thus a high rating on a Pound for pound list that by default measures intangibles is justified IMO.

I should not of poked the cobra; because my response makes me sound like a pretentious arse.

 

Thank you, I don't know enough about Jeffries to rank him. I know that he was a helluva fighter, and strong as an ox, but I don't know enough about his resume or traits besides his strength and stamina. The same goes with Sullivan and Fitzsimmons (I do rank him on a P4P list though).

 

Okay. There is no question Carpentier was critical in boxing history by spreading boxing to the European continent.