Look let's be realistic here. Wlad/Vitali/Lewis would dominate any era of HW boxing

glover,

I just believe that if you took one division at a time and looked at the best fighters who's ever fought there, the majority of them would be from the past. If you were objective, and didn't let sentiment get in the way, aswell as certain statistics and accomplishments etc, and just looked at how they fought, I think you'd see that fighters of the past generally had more ability. That's my honest opinion. I just notice little things, like double hooks, and body shots and uppercuts etc. You hardly see any modern day fighter throwing uppercuts. To me, boxers seemed sharper and fitter back then. A lot of today's fighters are gassed and they only fight 2-3 times a year and have 3 month training camps. Look at Ray Robinson and La Motta. Jake beat him, and then they had a rematch three weeks later, and neither fighter was spent, falling over with exhaustion.

I simply don't agree. I can't see where technique has improved, as per the post above.

I don't know, I suppose it depends on who's in front of you.

I don't believe he is. This maybe like the Roy Jones debate, where people say he wasn't particularly skilled he was just a great athlete. I'm split on that. But look at Ali's shot variation. He could throw a blinding 5 punch combination, with uppercuts etc. I've never seen Wlad do anything like that.

But the point is, it's what Ali did while out of range, that then dictated what happened when he was in range. Ali's footwork controlled the pace of the fight etc. He flurried, feinted, let people come in off balance, and then capitalized. He set everything up with his footwork. If Wlad was frustrated and was off balance, it would have been extremely difficult for him to land anything of significance. You keep downplaying footwork as running. But I would say (and fair enough, I've never boxed before) that a boxers biggest asset was his footwork. Byrd isn't as skilled or as fast as Ali. He's got great hand speed, but he didn't have feet like Ali. He never fought up on his toes. I agree with what you've said about him not facing a huge challenge until the 70's, after he'd fought Liston. But again, if he could beat Foreman at 32, I think he could have done it at 25. So fair enough, there's no evidence that he beat a huge threatening guy while 25, but that doesn't mean he wasn't capable of doing so. I'm certain that Ali at 25, was capable of beating any heavy in history.

I respect your opinion. But how can his skills have countered for little, when he'd have been constantly moving in and out of range? Wlad's never faced anyone with that sort of movement. Also, Ali may not have been a huge hitter, but he still had decent power, and Wlad hasn't got a great chin.

Frazier caught him with a beautiful left hook that would have dropped a lot of guys. It was a good left hook by Cooper, but Ali was Clay back then. He was young, and took Cooper extremely lightly. We're discussing a 25 year old version of Ali. Of course if any of those three had have landed clean, then it could have been disastrous. But I don't believe they would have landed clean. Again styles make fights. None of those three could throw a left hook like Frazier. I think if they'd have dropped Ali, it would have been from a different shot.

It all went hand in hand. The stamina issues was due to him being heavier. He was heavier, because he found it a lot harder to shift the weight when he came back. He trained just as hard, but he could never get to the point where he'd been before the ban. He wasn't as quick, or as light, and couldn't bounce off of his toes like he could previously. It was a culmination of inactivity and ageing. I've mentioned this to P4P Bute on the other thread. In Zaire while he was training, he lifted up his sweat shirt, and grabbed a piece of fat on his stomach. He said "I can't get rid of this, it won't come off like it used to".

Well from what I've heard, Ali when he came back in the 70's, took an absolute hammering in the gym. Apparently he used to let guys like Holmes who was his sparring partner tee off on him at will. I've heard a few people talk about this, including Roy Jones. Maybe he had the mind set, that he needed to be prepared to take punishment because he no longer had his footwork? I don't know. But apparently, he purposely stood there and got pounded on.

 

This thread is embarrassing.

 

glover,

Part 2.

George didn't catch up with him at all in the first round.

Ali deliberately went to the ropes from the 2nd round onwards, which was the start of "The rope a dope" It was nothing to do with George catching up with him. He'd prepared himself to do it before the fight. If Ali could have sustained that and would have had the stamina to fight like that for the full 15, I don't think George would have eventually wore him down. He couldn't even get close in the first, so what makes you think he could have come close in the other rounds? He would have used a lot of energy up chasing Ali, and missing with winging shots out of frustration.

At that stage of his career, he literally had no other option. I think any other guy faced with what Ali faced, wouldn't have taken the fight. Ali knew he couldn't dance. He knew he couldn't trade. There was nothing else he could have done. He was always going to take the fight, because he was a warrior and he had a huge ego. It was brave and stupid. Could you imagine a heavy of today going up against George, with the sole intention of laying against the ropes getting absolutely battered, with the intention of tiring him out? It would never happen. It has to be the greatest win in history. He knew going into the fight he'd be seriously ill afterwards. He urinated blood for weeks after. It was absolutely insane what he put himself through. All the while he was getting pounded on, he was trying to psyche George out. "Is that all you've got? You're hitting like a sissy, your punches are nothing!" Call it bravery or stupidity, but under the circumstances, it's the greatest win ever in my opinion. Nobody gave him a chance. Frazier gave Ali all he could handle, then Foreman destroyed Frazier. People thought Ali was going to get destroyed. Foreman was a 24 year old wrecking machine! Ali has to be one of the toughest guys who's ever fought. I know you don't rate Norton, but how many people would fight on with a broken jaw?

I agree. I was only making the point, that size can be overcome.

The thing is though, a prime Tyson didn't lose to Douglas. Now you may say that's ridiculous, as he was only 24. But the Tyson that Cus and Rooney had, that was managed by Jim Jacobs and Bill Clayton, was a totally different version of Mike that showed up in Tokyo. Now I don't like making excuses for fighters, and Tyson was an adult, and he has to take responsibility for his own actions. But the Rooney version of Mike, was fit and focused, and stayed up for hours and hours watching and studying fighters of the past. He was up at 5 doing his roadwork, and he wanted to improve everyday. When King came on the scene, he blazed through money, and became a womaniser. He couldn't handle any of it. He had a disastrous marriage, and he took more shots against Douglas than in any other fight. He was out of shape and was in the wrong mindset. He'd cut corners in the gym, had been partying instead of sleeping, and he paid the ultimate price. He'd taken Douglas lightly (all his fault) and hadn't prepared. Douglas without being disrespectful, was in the right place at the right time. He'd also just lost his Mum, and he had a will of absolute iron that night.

I've seen countless interviews with Kevin Rooney over the years where he's said "No disrespect to Buster, but if me, Bill, and Jim had've had Mike, that fight wouldn't have gone 5 rounds". I believe him. Again, Mike only has himself to blame. But when I do a hypothetical head to head, it's based on a fully fit and motivated Mike, fighting to his full capabilities. Of course Lennox is in a different league to Buster. But you can't say "If Buster beat him, then Lewis would have, because he was a lot better". You have to allow for circumstances. The world was robbed of Mike's prime. If we were in Mike's shoes at 23, with King waving millions of dollars around and girls throwing themselves at us, we'd probably have done the same. Again, Mike was an adult, and has to take responsibility, but I blame King for robbing us of one of the greatest ever fighters. Mike was finished at 23/24. Rooney also said, that the worrying signs were there from the first Bruno fight. But i believe that an 87/88 version of Mike could have beaten any version of Lewis.

Sorry, I didn't see this before I typed my response above. Yes, I agree entirely. It's a crying shame.

 

glover,

I'd have to re watch it to be honest, but I thought Mike had it pretty much his own way.

But those guys would have so much trouble finding him and doing any damage. Also, Ali had a fair amount of power. He certainly wasn't feather fisted.

What do you think about the "Anchor punch" he landed on Liston? That's still being disputed today?

We'll agree to disagree. :good

I've absolutely loved debating with you, but it's taken me ages ha! I haven't had any work on today. (I'm a courier driver) But hopefully I'm going to be busy within the next couple of days. So I might not be able to reply back to you straight away. We've had such a great debate, it might be the weekend until I get through all of your replies. I will eventually answer them though, and I'll certainly be on here if I have the time.

Thanks mate!

 

I don't see why Vitali is lumped together with actual champions like Lewis and Wlad. Take him out and your thread title would be less ridiculous.

 

Glover,

Hi mate, I'm not sure why I can't see your posts?

This site has gone weird within the last week.

I can't even find you, to send you a pm.

Tell your wife that she's being very selfish! Ha! Only joking mate!

I get into trouble all the time with my girlfriend for being on here. We went on holiday, and I took her iphone off of her while I had an argument with Bailey regarding Roy Jones. Ha! She was not impressed!

Regarding Bowe and Holyfield vs Wlad/Lewis/Vitali at their best, well, that's a hell of a question.

The Bowe of the Holyfield fights was a special fighter. But he was mentally weak in my opinion. He looked awful against Golota, even before Golota started fouling.

I think at his absolute best, he could have beaten all three.

But I think it would be 50-50 vs Vitali, he'd have lost to Lennox, and he'd have beaten Wlad.

I think Holy at his best would have beaten Wlad, scraped by Vitali, and Lewis would have been 50/50.

How would you have seen an 87-88 Tyson vs Holy?

I hope you're still a member on here mate, and I'll look forward to debating with you again soon.

 

Lewis dominated Vitaly, would have beaten his younger brother even worse. Enough said.

 

Muhammad Ali only lost a close dec over highly experienced ringmaster "Neon" Leon Spinks.

He took everything hard hitting (33% Ko ratio) Chuck Wepner threw at him and went on to win. He took all 185 lbs of Henry Cooper's shots aswell and people compare Vitali's chin to his just because he took a couple of big shots of Lennox Lewis, Sam Peter and Corrie Sanders and never stumbled once. :huh

 

The point of your sarcasm is....???

 

Tommo,

Glad to see you back. The bum comments were out of line, but it was obvious that you weren't being a 100% serious.

Riddick was great, but he reminds me of James Toney. I saw an interview with Rock Newman once. He said "The thing with Riddick is this. He doesn't chase women. He doesn't do drugs. He doesn't drink. He doesn't party all night. But he EATS! He gorges himself on food." Ha!

I'm not a huge fan of Lewis's to be honest with you. I respect that he was a fine HW, but I think he was a little lucky. I think he was in the right place at the right time. Mike went to prison, and he had the opportunity to be the best HW in the world. But then he got stopped by McCall, which in my opinion actually worked out ok for him. Because that loss set him back, and he didn't end up fighting Holy til Holy was past his best at the end of the 90's. Ray Mercer gave him all he could handle, and a lot of people thought that Ray had won. Then he beat Holy and unified. But less than two years later, he lost to Rahman. He then beat the shell of Mike, and had a controversial fight with Vitali. I think Lewis was very good. He avenged his losses, and he really impressed me with the Ruddock win. But I don't think he was as special as people claim. I think the best versions of Mike, Bowe and Holy, all could have beaten him.

Exactly, as per above.

The Buster loss in my opinion, was just due to circumstances. Mike fighting to his full capabilities would easily have beaten Buster in my opinion. That unbelievable loss, was due to Mike's hectic life, and the fact that Buster had just unfortunately lost his Mum, and he had a will of iron that night. Buster was never going to beat Holy afterwards. I think an 87-88 Mike Vs Holy at his peak is a hell of a fight. I think it would have gone to a decision in favour of Mike, if he'd have kept his cool, and not got frustrated.

 

I personally recommend that you dont comment on this site ever again :hi:

 

Sonny Liston could potentially stop Lewis with his just his "Jab" alone .

 

Stupid troll. Wlad went real life h2h with Purity and Sanders and got his ass handed to him.

 

No. Don't be stupid.

 

Tommo,

I know you've got a giant poster of Floyd Patterson in your living room. Ha!

Ray was a good fighter, I just feel as though Lennox is overrated, That's my honest opinion. I think he'd have done well in any era, but I don't think he'd have dominated ANY era.

I think Lennox is a level above Wlad.

Are you saying that you think Lewis is the best HW of all time?

Or are you saying that you think he was the greatest fighter who's ever fought?