Looking for a consensus HW top100!

Well, we disagree here. Vitali was in there with a punching bag in his last fight. Peter did nothing. And this may hide weaknesses Vitali has gained through inactivity. Chagaev wouldn´t be as easy to hit as Peter, he would be able to close the gap. Not to mention Chagaev has the faster hand, is a southpaw and has a great trainer with Christian Timm - who is as successful as Sdunek even so hes 30 years younger and was the disciple of Sdunek for quite a time, so he knows everything Sdunek could come up with.

Valuev would be a problem for Vitali alone with his size, jab and stamina. Valuev is no easy fight for anyone in the division. And like I said I think Peter´s poor performance might have made Vitali look better than he really is at the moment.

Yes you can, I agree. But you don´t got what I meant. You can´t prove yourself with one fight. All those other guys proved themselves against many good contenders. Vitali has only one fight to prove himself. He had other fighters who were contenders but compare them to the opponents of the best of the last generation for example. They don´t stand up to them.

Lewis was 37 years old, past his prime, untrained, fat and prepared for a different fighter and by the six round the tide turned clearly in his favour. He found his mark and started to hit Vitali consistently with his uppercuts. And Vitali did not outbox Lennox easily. Where did that come from?

Well, Lewis was not prime by far. Yeah, he proved something against him. But I don´t think a fight against a prime Lewis would have looked like their actual one.
Byrd was in a huge size disadvantage what resulted in a style disadvantage. That´s a bit similar to Hearns-Duran.

Well, we´ll see. Vitali said he would fight his brother for all 4 titles.

 

Well, yeah Vitali was more dominant but he lacks the longvity Ruiz, Byrd and to a degree Tua had at the top. Those fought at the top for a longer period of time than Vitali and imo this counts for a lot. Their accomplishments are quite similar, dominance goes to Vitali but resume, longevity and over-/underachieving goes to Ruiz/Byrd.

Imo Vitali has no chance of catching his brother. Wlad unified, has the far better resume and longevity, the same dominance and is on the edge of becoming a top20 hw.

 

Vitlai made Peter into a punching bag with skills, and power. He busted him up, and took his will. No one else could do this vs Peter to date. Give Vitlai some credit. You're a closet hater in this respect.

I know Chagaev well, he's gun shy vs hitters. Chagaev barely edged a slower Virchis ( Some thinkg Virchis won ) and Valuev. He beat them with counters and speed, which would not work vs a fighter Vitlai's size and ability because Vitlai would use his range, reflexes, and counters well himself.

I don't think Valuev would be a problem. In truth, Valuev lost to Larry Donald on points, which is a fighter Vitlai dominated and Knocked out. I would bet the house Vitali would either TKO Valuev or win via wide margin on the cards. Again, give credit, Vitlai is extremely hard to out box. No man has ever been up on the cards vs him after 3 rounds, or won three clean rounds by all three judges. This is because Vitlai is very big, has good reflexes, throws lots of punches, and put the pressure on his man. Again, you fail to see what I'm talking about.

Lewis was trained. He was shot at 37? Didn't he have a career best performance vs Rhaman in the 2nd fight? I think so. Lewis was not shot. He was simply in there vs the best live body he ever faced. Yes--Vitlai offered far more than a shot Tyson or a fading Holyfield. Vitlai did out box Lewis 4-2 on all three cards. I beleive Lewis was tired after 6 rounds. In addtion, Lewis turned down a re-match because he knows he would not get lucky the 2nd time around.

If you take that seriously, then your way out there. I do not see the two fighting for all the belts in a real match.

 

Where did I say Chagaev or Valuev would beat Vitali? I never did write anything like that. I said they would pressure him and push him far more than Peter. This would expose us some weaknesses of him that were hided in the Peter fight due to Peter´s poor performance.
Yeah, sure I´m a hater. Great argument there.
Btw. ever heard of styles make fights? Because Vitali beat Donald and Donald had a close fight with Valuev, vitali beats Valuev. For sure, great logic atsch

so, I wrote now that Lewis was shot. Strange, I can´t read that anywhere. I said he was past his prime which is a fact. I said he was untrained which was visible with the tyre of fat around his hips. Those things are just facts.
Sure, did Vitali offer more but he also fought an inferior Lewis.
And, no Lewis turned not down a rematch because he was afraid but because he 37 years old, past his prime and had no desire to fight anymore. Maybe that´s what he took out of his fight with Vitali.
And yeah Lewis was tired that´s why he won the last two rounds :good btw. did I meantion that he was untrained?

Well, may be you are in for a surprise.

 

Chagaev would not be able to pressure Vitlai round after round. Chagaev does not pressure good fighter with ability. He more or less picks his shots. Chagaev is even shorter than Peter, and is really limited in reach. In additon, Chagaev's stmaina and punch out put is nothing special in the mid to late rounds. Pressure Vitlai you say? Ha. Chagaev might do a little better than Peter. That's about as far as I'll go.

The Donald fight proves a boxer with a good jab and mobility beats Valuev, and Valuev lost to an older Donald. The Ruiz matches to a lesser degree show the same thing.

If Vitlai ever fights Valuev or Chagaev, I'd like to bet you, and rest assured you lose. Good, keep your thoughts that these two are tests. It will be interesting to see if you discredit them IF Vitlai meets them and beats them. For the record, I think Gomez beat Valuev if they meet, and Vitlai might fight Gomex next.

 

I think I expressed a bit wrong. With pressure I don´t mean Chagaev pressures him like a pressure fighter but pushes him to his limit. You underate Chagaev quite a bit. I won´t discredit Chagaev or Valuev if he fights them. I never thought much of Peter and I said so before the fight, I also said that Vitali would beat Peter if he has anything left. I thought Peter would do a bit better and Vitali would do a bit better but overall I expected a similar fight to what happened if Vitali had anything left.

Donald is a whole different fighter to Vitali. Far more fundemantal and basic. And he had faster hands than the Vitali of the Peter fight. They are not comparable.

Bet what? Firstly, I don´t make bets. Secondly, i won´t pick either one to beat Vitali. but i think both would give him stiff tests.

Gomez has a chance of beating Valuev due to workrate, I agree, but again styles make fights.

 

David Tua is too high.Tyson should be ahead of Holmes.

 

Why?

 

I agree, you expressed it a bit wrong. Pressuring the other fighter to me is being aggressive, leading and making the fight. Chagaev does not fight that way; moreover, he is an opportunistic type.

I do not under rate Chagaev at all. In fact, I said he could have been champion in weaker eras, and rates as a solid #2-4 in just about any era. I also beleive Chagaev is a top 100 heavyweight, and his best years are still ahead of him.

If you watch Chagaev, he is not the type to press and tire the other person out late, because he does not throw many punches. Vitlai throws more punches. Chagaev has very short arms, and he's much shorter in stature compared to Vitlai. I'm telling you, Chagaev's problem is the same problem Ibragimov had with Wlad. That is to say, he has zero chance of winning as an out fighter. The problem is compounded because Vitlai has better / faster feet, and Chagaev isn't the type to take risks...not vs Ruiz, Skelton, or Valuev. If Chagaev pressed it more, maybe he stops one of these guys.

While I do think Chagaev has fast hands and good power, it is unlikely one or two big shots from Chagaev would do anything but swing a round his way vs Vitlai.

Fundamentally, Valuev has problems vs a good jab. Donald had one. So did Ruiz, and they landed and scored on Valuev who is not fast. Vitlai's jab is better than anyone Valuev has faces, and he can combo off it, or throw it going backwards or circling.

This is where we disagree. I think Vitali would win a wide decision, 10 rounds to 2, or TKO either Valuev or Chagaev. I think Lewis, Byrd, and Donald are better pure boxers than either Valeuv and Chagaev. Do we agree here? Is so take note none of the quality boxers Vitlai fought won more than 2 consensus rounds vs him. So how exactly would Valuev or Chagaev be a stiff test for Vitlai?

Maybe, but Gomez isn't fighting Valuev next. He is Vitlai's mandatory unless step aside money can be given to Gomez.

 

While I agree that Bowe belongs in the top 20 and Fitzsimmons doesn't, let me point out that Fitzsimmons' "loss" in the first Sharkey fight was a controversial DQ in which he had put Sharkey down with what many believed to be a clean body shot.

 

What's McCall's ranking at the mo?

 

Questions for you, Mendoza.

Questions I would ask of any champion and I would be interested in your answers.

Other than Vitali himself, who were the top five heavyweights active while Vitali was active? How many did he fight? How many did he defeat?

What can he do before he retires to give a stronger answer to these questions?