Looks good on paper, but...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by scartissue, Nov 19, 2022.

  1. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    How many times have we seen a result or someone brings up a win like it was a big deal, that was an eyecatcher? Until of course, we read between the lines and say, "Nah, hang on a second..." Here are a couple just to get things rolling.

    1) Duane Bobick KO7 Mike Weaver - Duane had quite the resume over B-level contenders such as Scott LeDoux, Bunny Johnson, Larry Middleton, Chuck Wepner, Randy Neumann, etc. But the eye-catcher was his win over Weaver. However, one need only look at weaver's record at the time to realize he was still in his early journeyman phase where he wasn't taking the career seriously.

    2) Bob Baker W10 George Chuvalo - this win has always been mentioned as one of Baker's great wins at the tail end of his career, but Chuvalo was a 12-1 novice and his camp probably thought it would be great to have a name like Baker on the resume. But Bob still had a bit in the tank. It would be a good few years before Chuvalo broke into the big time.

    3) Lou Nova W6 Abe Simon - again, I have seen Simon's name brought up as this big win on Nova's record. But hang on and look at the fact that it was a 6 rounder. Nova was 7-0-1 and Simon was 13-0. A good win for two prospects maybe, but not 2 contenders. They were both just pups.

    Let's hear some more.
    mattdonnellon, HolDat, Fergy and 2 others like this.
  2. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Aug 22, 2004
    Bobby Chacon KO10 Chucho Castillo - For obvious reasons. Castillo was first of all just a few fights from the end of his career, but the size disparity was amazing in this fight. Chacon looked like a mountain compared to Castillo.

    Paul Gonzales W12 Orlando Canizales - This was only Canizales' 12th fight I think, something like that, and he hadn't yet become the terror of the 118-pound class. Gonzales was a well-schooled technical boxer, but not much else. Two different classes of fighter that met at the right time for one, while being a valuable learning experience for the other. The tables would be turned in their return match.
  3. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    I wonder if we knew more about the old days when guys were fighting frequently how many wins that look impressive no paper weren’t considered so then because so-and-so had the flu or the guy who lost had broken his hand in his previous fight and went ahead and fought again anyway, etc.

    Not to pick on Harry Greb, but with as many fights as he (or many others had), there were certainly circumstances we today don’t know existed that might have been common knowledge then (at least to insiders) in at least some of those many fights.
  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Feb 15, 2006
    You could argue that Simon appears to have had twice as many professional fights as Nova, and that this should be taken into account.
    KasimirKid likes this.
  5. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Yeah, you could, but Nova was a step ahead of Simon somewhat to begin with. He had won the 1935 AAU heavyweight title which suggest an extensive amateur career, but I don't think Simon had any kind of Simon-Pure (no pun intended) background. Moreover, Nova graduated to 10 rounders right after their bout, which again suggests he was finding his footing in the pro ranks fast, whereas Simon really wouldn't hit the 10 round distance until '39 (despite a couple of 10 rounders thrown in here and there). So I think the notoriety was all with Nova at this time, but I do see what you say.
    janitor likes this.
  6. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

    Jun 14, 2022
    Good point. Can you imagine the amount of guys who would have fought with all manners of injuries, knocks, even viruses, considering how often they fought. The odd few even fought a few times in a day for goodness sake, so is it any wonder some of these great old timers had something like 20 or more defeats on their records…some of them were probably fighting a night after being patched up in the hospital haha.

    As an old family friend of my parents…who was a journeyman boxer around 50 odd years ago…said after nursing a sprained wrist a day before a fight: “I don’t fight, I don’t eat.”
    He fought with his injury and he lost…but to be honest he always seemed to lose even with two good wrists.
    Pugguy and Saintpat like this.
  7. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Thought of a couple of more.

    Victor Rabanales KO8 Rafael Marquez - Wow, what a win. But close perusal gleans the fact that this was Marquez' pro debut. What possessed Marquez' manager to put his blue-chip debutant in the ring with a 55 fight veteran?

    Javier Ayala KO4 Hector Thompson - In '74, Hector Thompson was the #1 contender for the jr. welterweight title. Having recently beaten Alfonso Frazer, Jimmy Heair and Carlos Gimenez, this bout against the journeyman Ayala looked routine, and was, for about 3 rounds until Thompson's knee went. Retired between rounds, Thompson underwent surgery to remove cartilage I believe. 4 months later he was back where he left off, thumping the contenders of the day. I would imagine Ayala had his moment of glory telling everyone he knocked out the #1 contender.
    robert ungurean and Pugguy like this.
  8. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Dec 2, 2006
    Jeffries over Peter Jackson, Hank Griffin over Jack Johnson, Tom Sharkey over Fitz.
  9. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Matt, could you elaborate for us?
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

    Feb 11, 2005
  11. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

    Aug 15, 2018
    Disagree on the Baker win. He was well past it…they were on equal terms being young up and comer and aging out vet. I don’t think it’s the greatest win of his but it’s worth noting.
    Jackomano likes this.
  12. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    I don't know GP, I like George, but he had never been 10 rounds in his 13 fights as a pro and had to be green as they come. Although I don't think Baker was prime anymore, he wasn't that far gone. In fact he beat Dick Richardson shortly after the Chuvalo fight. So he still had a bit left in the tank. I wonder what the odds were on this fight and how it was perceived at the time?
  13. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    Sep 7, 2008
    Great thread
    scartissue and Pugguy like this.
  14. FastHands(beeb)

    FastHands(beeb) Well-Known Member Full Member

    Oct 28, 2010
    Abe Simon v Jersey Joe Walcott.

    John Stracey v Jose Napoles.
  15. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Whooa! Simon v Walcott is a great one. So early and probably so malnourished in JJW's career.