Louis Above Ali - Convince Me

Russell, I can't make an argument for Joe Louis against Ali at his best, which for me was 1967. That Ali was the best heavyweight champ of all time. NOBODY beats him!!
Don't get me wrong though, Joe Louis definitely makes my top 4, and I think he was a tremendous fighter. And like Ali, Louis transcended the sport. He was more than just a boxer. He was an icon and a hero.
But I give the following reasons as to why Ali was just a little better than Joe.
1. Joe was a tremendous puncher who threw short straight and compact punches that he always threw in fast combinations. His punchesnot only knocked guys cold ,but they cut up and busted up opponents on impact. Also when Joe had someone hurt, he is considered by many to be the best finisher in the history of boxing. That being said, Louis had trouble with guys who could box,like he did with Billy Conn. Throw a prime Ali and the trouble gets worse. Ali's elusiveness and speed would give Joe fits. Lots of Joe's shots would hit air, and when a fighter misses, it takes alot out of them.Also Ali's lightning left jab and right cross would find its markalot, especially as Joe tires later on.
2.Joe did not have the best chin in the world. He was floored many times by lesser fighters, so I don't see him hurting Ali, who had the best chin of any heavyweight champ ever.
3. Ali had like 35-40 lbs on Joe, and that would play a factor. Ali was very smart in there, and he would use his weight in clinches to lean on Joe and take more steam out of his body.
4.Ali faced the better competition of the 2 as well.
Therefore I look for Ali to use his speed and elusiveness and size to wear down Joe and win by TKO in like Rounds 10-12

 

Excellent Post!

Just match up Ali's opponents with Louis's that they beat.

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1

This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.

That’s 31 wins against 23 different opponents. All 23 opponents were rated #3 or better in the World at one time or another by Ring Magazine.

 

Never happen .Ali a God!!!! Dela hoya, Leonard ray of course 3 Louis couldnt touch!!!

 

Good post, but one thing
"Ali had like 35 -40lbs on Joe"? Louis best weight was around 200lbs, Ali's 212lb s so 12 lbs .NOT 35 -40lbs

 

Norton's crab like style ,with the right hand up to catch the jab bothered Ali it nullified his jab ,speed didnt come into it.
I think Ali hit hard enough with his right to floor Louis,Conn at 168lbs wobbled Joe a couple of times.
Louis could be dropped but had good recuperative powers ,his feet were not fast, whatever anyone says,and his head movement was negligible,he wasnt found out too often ,because most guys backpedalled when they got in there with him,they were well aware of the murder in his fists and didnt make him do anything he didnt want to.
Boxers who went at Louis gave him some uncomfortable moments ,if only fleetingly.Buddy Baer.Tony Galento,Tami Mauriello.The first two knocked him down and Mauriello wobbled him but lacked the ability to apply the crusher came in careless and got tagged.

 

I don't think Louis should get a pass for the loss at all. He was convincingly beaten. Two factors that contributed to the loss was that Schmeling exploited a weakness in Joe's style and secondly, Louis was overconfident and undertrained.
He rectified both mistakes and never looked back after that.
So, while the loss should count against him, the fact that he identified the problem and dealt with it accordingly should count as a plus for him, too.

Your analysis of the Ali v Frazier encounter is a fair one, but let it be said that Ali, in three fights, never could avoid Joe's left hook. He always had problems with left hookers and one would think that at some point he could have found a way to avoid the blow a lot less.

There's no doubt Ali lost a step or two in speed due to the layoff, and was easier to hit. No man can take three years off and not lose something. However, at the same time, the 70's Ali seemed to be more robust and better able to deal with punishment than the 60's Ali.
I have no empirical proof, but it does seem (to me at least) that way. He had more savvy and experience than the younger version as well.
So while in the 70's he wasn't fully primed, he made up for some of the shortfall in other areas.

I'll give you Foreman and Frazier.
I'm surprised that you mention Liston though, who was probably close to 40 at the time, and Patterson who was suffering from back problems in his second fight with Ali.
Ali's second tier opponents probably do match up with Louis' best opponents (though for me it's infinitely harder fighting a cagey Walcott than a hard punching but otherwise limited Shavers) so fair point.

Ali's quality of opposition overall cannot be challenged, this is true. But again, Liston was an old man by the time he fought Ali. He did destroy the hugely intimidated Floyd Patterson not too long before, but the fact remains he was old.
As for Louis, well Schmeling and Walcott (whom Louis fought as an old man himself) would make many if not most people's top 20 lists. When you're as dominant as Louis was, you're bound to fight some fighters that weren't of great quality. Ali himself fought several guys who really weren't much good themselves, like London, Coopman, Spinks etc.
And while Louis did not have a prolonged layoff as did Ali, his career was interrupted several times by the war.
Louis also doesn't get enough credit for coming out of retirement and beating one or two credible opponents when he was running on gas fumes.

That's the boxing business though, and back then black fighters made no money fighting other black fighters. They made money fighting the white guys. Nobody wanted any part of black fighters those days, chiefly because there was no money to be made in fighting one or managing one.
Even Jack Blackburn at first wanted no part of Louis when he found out Louis was black.
Reason? Black fighters don't get the breaks. Their careers hit a dead end fast. He didn't want to waste his time with a dead horse.

I think it's a testament to Louis' overriding ability that he was able to force himself to be noticed. His performances were good enough that even the white crowds wanted to see him fight.
Everyone talks about the tough breaks Ali got sometimes, but the era he fought in was a paradise compared to the era Louis fought in, as far as discrimination goes.
So yes...Louis may have added one or two black more guys to his long list of victims, but the political and social climate, more than any reserve on Louis' part, was the principal reason for that.

 

That's the boxing business though, and back then black fighters made no money fighting other black fighters. They made money fighting the white guys. Nobody wanted any part of black fighters those days, chiefly because there was no money to be made in fighting one or managing one.
Even Jack Blackburn at first wanted no part of Louis when he found out Louis was black.
Reason? Black fighters don't get the breaks. Their careers hit a dead end fast. He didn't want to waste his time with a dead horse.

I think it's a testament to Louis' overriding ability that he was able to force himself to be noticed. His performances were good enough that even the white crowds wanted to see him fight.
Everyone talks about the tough breaks Ali got sometimes, but the era he fought in was a paradise compared to the era Louis fought in, as far as discrimination goes.
So yes...Louis may have added one or two black more guys to his long list of victims, but the political and social climate, more than any reserve on Louis' part, was the principal reason for that.[/quote]

Excellent!

 

I actually think he did. I would say that FOTC was a watershed for him. He adapted his style somewhat and wasn't tagged as often by left hooks anymore. If you look at Manilla, as brutal as that fight was Ali wasn't getting hit nearly as much with clean left hooks as in FOTC. It was more the general attrition that almost did him in. He held is hands up better, didn't upppercut from the outside and often leaned into Frazier when on the ropes instead of leaning away. I think it's obvious that he had learned from FOTC. Of course, he was tagged cleanly even in Manilla, but standing toe-to-toe with Frazier for 14 rounds you will get tagged at some point.

Sure, but don't forget that he also lost out in terms of experience during that lay-off. If he had been active instead, he would probably had some 15+ fights in that period which would have benefitted his experience and wiseness in the ring. At 29 he would have been more experienced than he was in FOTC, without having lost so much from a physical standpoint.

Experience and maturity wasn't something that came with the lay-off. Rather the opposite, since he lost out on a lot of fights and training.

 

Yeah my fault. I somehow assumed that Louis only weighed 190 at the most. Maybe because Marchiano was only 185 I assumed Joe was in the same ballpark

 

I can't convince you because Louis is so far away from Ali in terms of greatness that I can't even concoct a rationalization for claiming Louis' is greater. Several heavyweights are greater than Louis. Good luck to those who have decided to accept your challenge.

 

Anyway, I rank Ali as number 1 and Louis at number 2. I can see the argument for Louis being ranked 1 because of longevity and depth, but I prefer Ali at number 1 because of his head to head ability and best wins.

 

The Joe Louis of 1942 weighed 207 lbs while the Ali of 1966 weighed just 201 lbs. Prime Louis is bigger and outweighs Ali by 6 lbs so he obviously wins.

 

Louis could punch and had great hands.
BUT,
he was right there in front of you --- he was there to hit.
One dimensional.
Compare him to Liston's style.
Ali would have a picnic with him, and give Louis fits.

 

You picked Louis's heaviest weight and Ali's lightest.

Ali weighed 214½ against Chuvalo, 201½ against Cooper, 209½ against London, 204¼ against Mildenberger and 212¾ against Williams in 1966.

Louis weighed 206½ against Buddy Baer and 207½ against Simson in 1942.

 

I know. Just poking some fun at those who believe Ali was 40 lbs bigger than Joe Louis. I think that there wasn't much of a weight difference prime for prime.

Louis was at his best in 1942 when he fought Baer and Simon in rematches in my opinion. Prime Ali (1964-1967) weighed anywhere from 200 to 215 lbs.