Lucian Bute has a glass jaw!

forreal · Feb 21, 2012

Let's just get it out of the way... I AM NOT Mr.Magic.. Got it?

forreal · Feb 21, 2012

mark.cooper said: ↑

I'm not very sure what do you mean by "knowledge" and evidence for it.

First of all, let's agree on the meaning of the expression "glass jaw". A short dictionary definition is "a jaw that is excessively fragile or susceptible to punches", that is 1. it either breaks easily or 2. its owner gets very easily KD/KO-ed if his mandible receives a punch. Other definitions complete the understanding of the two above mentioned basic meanings: "a person's jaw, especially that of a boxer, that is vulnerable to even a light blow",
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"The name given to a boxer who has a weak chin. Usually one who has been knocked out several times.", "a weak jaw that is easily broken, especially as an indication of a fighters vulnerability to an opponents punches.". There is also a dedicated thread on this very forum and a nice extended definition at some point of the discussions: "The inability to sustain a solid punch at the world class level from a fighter that is considered feather fisted or lacking in power, without showing the visible effects of a physically damaged fighter (i.e. spaghetti legs, chicken dancing, excessive running, hugging or holding or just being left laid out sleeping on the canvas for minutes on end). It also pertains to the boxers ability to recover from such a shot." (corrected spelling). So one has to keep in mind all these context details in any further analysis.

Once we agree on the meaning of the expression, we can step forward and see if Bute's jaw meets the requirements to be classified as such.
AFAIK, the #1 meaning can be excluded from this discussion: Lucian Bute has never physically broken his mandible, consequently we should concentrate on #2.
The arguments allegedly pointing to a sensible-jawed Bute are the two standard boxing facts: 1. the Golovkin KO in the amateurs and 2. the 12th round Andrade KD at the end of their first match. One could also mention 3. Bute's usually prudent boxing strategies, not involving taking up heavy risks.
Are these arguments crucial and decisive?

1. The Golovkin KO: it was an exceptionally heavy punch from a physically very strong opponent (just check out his "pro" record, all his fights from 2009 on ended in KOs or TKOs) which landed not on the chin but on his face. Consequently, one cannot argue about with this example about his jaw sensibility (he wasn't hit on the jaw in that occasion) to even a light blow (it was a very heavy blow); one might still wonder a bit about the "inability to sustain a solid punch at the world class level [...]". Nevertheless, even this wondering should fade out when considering the successive chunk of information contained in that definition "[...] from a fighter that is considered feather fisted or lacking in power": there is no way to classify Golovkin as "feather fisted" or "lacking power" (apart the fact there was no jaw involved). So this argument does not prove Lucian Bute has a glass jaw (in any of the above mentioned meanings), it proves that a very heavy punch landed on his face in a moment of low defense did hurt him bad enough to put an end of that fight. But this is not called "glass jaw".

2. The Andrade KD: as already hinted out, Bute falling on the ropes was the result of progressive physical exhaustion (increasingly obvious during the last round of that fight) combined with the mechanical push effect of Andrade's blow. Bute did not looked tremendously worse after that punch, he was already looking bad before it (he even used the ropes for standing on the ring just seconds before). Moreover, even if one would want to assert against obvious evidence that the main cause of his fall was neither physical exhaustion nor the mechanical push effect of the punch but the impact shock effect of Andrade's blow, this alleged effect has been able to keep him on the ropes for less than 10 seconds: one cannot really call that "excessive sensibility". On another hand, if one looks carefully to the last operational definition, Bute was by all means a "damaged fighter" when that punch occurred, so the conditions to call him a "glass jaw" were clearly not met even in this case.

3. This argument might be rephrased like this: "Bute knows he has a weak chin, therefore he has to choose only fighting strategies minimizing the probability of receiving blows on his jaw". This could be right, but it's just guessing. Actually, a strategy involving accepting countless blows on the chin would be a very weak strategy; not only the fighter would get hurt on a long term even with a rock solid jaw, but the referees do consider also these punches when they decide to which fighter the round should go. In all fairness, this is a matter of rational choice rather than a weak chin protection strategy.

What we do really have pointing towards a normal-jaw Bute are his matches with other good punchers. Statistically, his mandible received a certain number of solid blows during these fights: had it been a "glass jaw", it would have produced observable effects according to all definitions above. But it didn't. Bute has no series of KOs/KDs, he has just two such events (still not pointing towards "glass jaw") occurred in different and particular circumstances during his entire amateur/pro career.

Summing up:
1. there is no real evidence suggesting Bute has a "glass jaw" (in the above meaning)
2. there is evidence suggesting Bute has a normal jaw
Therefore, at least until an improbable further event would force us to change our minds, we have to agree Bute has no "glass jaw", within the limits of the current usual meanings of this expression.
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flashy k.o · Feb 21, 2012

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MrMagic · Feb 21, 2012

flashy k.o said: ↑

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Like I posted earlier, his level of competition is nearly as bad as his fragile whiskers. He needs to step up, untill then he's completely and utterly irrelevant.

I'm sure forreal has taken notice to his china chin and is simply pointing out that fact, something he shouldn't be bashed for.. I mean, there is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT HIS CHIN IS ****!

forreal · Feb 21, 2012

I'm not bashing Bute, just pointing out some conclusion i have come to through some research..

SuperiorBeen · Feb 21, 2012

Mods on this forum sure love trolls... They are everywhere. Look at that moron MrMagic he has almost 20k posts...And he is still trolling 8 years later.

flashy k.o · Feb 21, 2012

MrMagic said: ↑

For the record, I don't use alts like you butte-lickers.

By my estimation, forreal seems like a genuinely knowledgeable poster, by the looks of it.
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:yep:deal

mark.cooper · Feb 21, 2012

Gained said: ↑

silencer?
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Rational.

MrMagic · Feb 21, 2012

flashy k.o said: ↑

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:yep:deal
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I actually am at work, how about you?

24/24? You mean 24/7?

flashy k.o · Feb 21, 2012

SuperiorBeen said: ↑

Mods on this forum sure love trolls... They are everywhere. Look at that moron MrMagic he has almost 20k posts...And he is still trolling 8 years later.
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:good

BeastsideBoxing · Feb 21, 2012

mark.cooper said: ↑

I'm not very sure what do you mean by "knowledge" and evidence for it.

First of all, let's agree on the meaning of the expression "glass jaw". A short dictionary definition is "a jaw that is excessively fragile or susceptible to punches", that is 1. it either breaks easily or 2. its owner gets very easily KD/KO-ed if his mandible receives a punch. Other definitions complete the understanding of the two above mentioned basic meanings: "a person's jaw, especially that of a boxer, that is vulnerable to even a light blow", "The name given to a boxer who has a weak chin. Usually one who has been knocked out several times.", "a weak jaw that is easily broken, especially as an indication of a fighters vulnerability to an opponents punches.". There is also a dedicated thread on this very forum and a nice extended definition at some point of the discussions: "The inability to sustain a solid punch at the world class level from a fighter that is considered feather fisted or lacking in power, without showing the visible effects of a physically damaged fighter (i.e. spaghetti legs, chicken dancing, excessive running, hugging or holding or just being left laid out sleeping on the canvas for minutes on end). It also pertains to the boxers ability to recover from such a shot." (corrected spelling). So one has to keep in mind all these context details in any further analysis.

Once we agree on the meaning of the expression, we can step forward and see if Bute's jaw meets the requirements to be classified as such.
AFAIK, the #1 meaning can be excluded from this discussion: Lucian Bute has never physically broken his mandible, consequently we should concentrate on #2.
The arguments allegedly pointing to a sensible-jawed Bute are the two standard boxing facts: 1. the Golovkin KO in the amateurs and 2. the 12th round Andrade KD at the end of their first match. One could also mention 3. Bute's usually prudent boxing strategies, not involving taking up heavy risks.
Are these arguments crucial and decisive?

1. The Golovkin KO: it was an exceptionally heavy punch from a physically very strong opponent (just check out his "pro" record, all his fights from 2009 on ended in KOs or TKOs) which landed not on the chin but on his face. Consequently, one cannot argue about with this example about his jaw sensibility (he wasn't hit on the jaw in that occasion) to even a light blow (it was a very heavy blow); one might still wonder a bit about the "inability to sustain a solid punch at the world class level [...]". Nevertheless, even this wondering should fade out when considering the successive chunk of information contained in that definition "[...] from a fighter that is considered feather fisted or lacking in power": there is no way to classify Golovkin as "feather fisted" or "lacking power" (apart the fact there was no jaw involved). So this argument does not prove Lucian Bute has a glass jaw (in any of the above mentioned meanings), it proves that a very heavy punch landed on his face in a moment of low defense did hurt him bad enough to put an end of that fight. But this is not called "glass jaw".

2. The Andrade KD: as already hinted out, Bute falling on the ropes was the result of progressive physical exhaustion (increasingly obvious during the last round of that fight) combined with the mechanical push effect of Andrade's blow. Bute did not looked tremendously worse after that punch, he was already looking bad before it (he even used the ropes for standing on the ring just seconds before). Moreover, even if one would want to assert against obvious evidence that the main cause of his fall was neither physical exhaustion nor the mechanical push effect of the punch but the impact shock effect of Andrade's blow, this alleged effect has been able to keep him on the ropes for less than 10 seconds: one cannot really call that "excessive sensibility". On another hand, if one looks carefully to the last operational definition, Bute was by all means a "damaged fighter" when that punch occurred, so the conditions to call him a "glass jaw" were clearly not met even in this case.

3. This argument might be rephrased like this: "Bute knows he has a weak chin, therefore he has to choose only fighting strategies minimizing the probability of receiving blows on his jaw". This could be right, but it's just guessing. Actually, a strategy involving accepting countless blows on the chin would be a very weak strategy; not only the fighter would get hurt on a long term even with a rock solid jaw, but the referees do consider also these punches when they decide to which fighter the round should go. In all fairness, this is a matter of rational choice rather than a weak chin protection strategy.

What we do really have pointing towards a normal-jaw Bute are his matches with other good punchers. Statistically, his mandible received a certain number of solid blows during these fights: had it been a "glass jaw", it would have produced observable effects according to all definitions above. But it didn't. Bute has no series of KOs/KDs, he has just two such events (still not pointing towards "glass jaw") occurred in different and particular circumstances during his entire amateur/pro career.

Summing up:
1. there is no real evidence suggesting Bute has a "glass jaw" (in the above meaning)
2. there is evidence suggesting Bute has a normal jaw
Therefore, at least until an improbable further event would force us to change our minds, we have to agree Bute has no "glass jaw", within the limits of the current usual meanings of this expression.
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If something like this would've happen in a movie/ or taped in a discussion on the street it would immediately became a classic/ or a internet sensation.

You became my favorite poster with this reply.

drozzy · Feb 21, 2012

ALT-fest. Next.

chitownfightfan · Feb 21, 2012

forreal said: ↑

Andrade is the best fighter Bute has faced and the biggest punch threat, of course it was because of exhaustion
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People posing as fight fans........makes me ashamed to know you.:rofl

flashy k.o · Feb 21, 2012

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yep

chitownfightfan · Feb 21, 2012

forreal said: ↑

He was for the first time up against an iron chinned contender who didn't get KO'ed early, he stod up to the beating and put Bute down.. Yes, your chin gets more and more vulnerable the more rounds you fight, and that is how Andrade exposed Lucy's chin.
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You've just proved your absolute IGNORANCE with this post.

A true chin checker knows that a fighters chin is most vulnerable in the first round. If his chin is glass, you'll see it early rather than late.

And that shot from Golovkin would've KD'd Ernie Shavers.:rofl

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Lucian Bute has a glass jaw!

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Lucian Bute has a glass jaw!

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