LW Tournament Decade's Best: DURAN 1978, CHAVEZ 1987, WHITAKER 1990, MAYWEATHER 2002

weren't that many so it shouldn't take long

 

True...but I'm a bit busy at the moment...so since I don't know them off the top of my head. I'll delay the thread.

Unless you would like to oblige us with the thread

 

Duran
Whitaker
Chavez
Mayweather,jr

 

Its no use to try and go tit for tat in mythical matchups like this involving a variety of fighters......

I will say again that Chavez to me was the most adaptaptable and more versatile of the four.......
It really boggles me that its said that Chavez had trouble with speed and movement, because he did'nt dominate two great fighters .......Taylor and Whitaker.....he beat the crap out of Taylor, and he drew with Whitaker at a weight that was'nt freindly to him......

Taylor and Whitaker are fighters that just dont get dominated.....these are true Grade A great fighters......very few greats are dominated by other greats......so because Chavez does'nt dominate Whitaker and Taylor the way he would others he fought, he has trouble with speed and movement?:huh
What the hell fighter does'nt?

.....and btw Scientist, you named a few fighters like Buchanon, Dejusus, and Viruet as being sound defensive fighters......
.....were they defensive Wizards in the mold of Whitaker, Mayweather and Benitez.
I think you said yourself that these fighters you named were'nt considered great fighters.......I think that should tell you why Duran had a field day with them in the later rounds and likey struggled with them early.......had they been bonafide greats, Duran likely could have struggled with them for longer periods.
I think its a fair guess to say that non-greats have more of a penchant to struggle late in fights for whatever reason.....stamina, and adapaptability issues.......alot of them just dont become great because they dont have the work ethic.

Tell me that the defensive sound fighters that Duran faced at lightweight are on the level of Whitaker, Mayweather and Benitez, and I'll gracefully bow out of this thread???

Of course a good defensive fighter, but not a great one like the ones mentioned Duran faced and beat at lightweight, would get there ass handed to them by the Great Duran......thats what great fighters do.
......but could Duran have done that with with a defensive Wizard with the sure fire tools and work ethic of greatness is my questionmark?

Chavez faced Whitaker, the only fighter that I see on Duran's ledger that comes close is Benitez, and though Duran was'nt prime at 154 lbs, neither was Benitez!


Let me close by saying that Chavez is the only fighter of the four mentioned that dominated and wiped out three weight divisions.
130, 135, and 140.

Whitaker can be said dominated just lightweight, though some would say he dominated Welter.....

Mayweather has dominated two weight divsions, 130 lbs and 135 lbs.

Duran only dominated one weight division, 135 lbs!

.......just thought I mention that for what its worth.

I think it says something about the versatility and adaptability of a fighter than can stay in a division and rule it.....not jumping up and down picking and chosing the fighters that are more convenient for them to fight.

 

I think what's worrying is that most had Chavez losing about 8 or 9 rounds a piece to Whitaker and Taylor, not that he merely didn't 'dominate' them.

Obviously you disagree with that, fair enough, but nearly everyone sees it different to you.

I mentioned Buchanan, Viruet and Bizarro. All three belong to different classes. Buchanan is a great fighter, Viruet a very good one, and Bizarro an average one.

Neither of the three had Whitaker/Benitez/Mayweather level defense. Buchanan and Viruet had very good defense, Bizarro was a straight up runner. Think a Cory Spinks without fast hands.

A better fighter I could have mentioned is Vilomar Fernandez, a fighter who was able to outbox a slightly underdone Alexis Arguello with savvy ring movement. Duran took him to the cleaners and knocked him out late. Duran also easily got the better of excellent boxer punchers like Esteban DeJesus and Ernesto Marcel (another guy that outboxed a greenish Arguello).

Again though these guys weren't defensive maestros.

That said, I don't think guys like Buchanan and DeJesus are any worse than a fighter like Mayweather, and plenty of people in the classic forum would pick a fighter like Buchanan to beat Chavez (I'm not one of them).

How exactly did Chavez wipe out 135? He didn't even face Whitaker there who was clearly the best fighter in the division. In fact, he faced only two fighters there that were decent, Rosario and Ramirez. There was plenty of talent around, but he just jumped ship to 140.

Again, how did Mayweather dominate 135? By going (in most people's minds) 1-1 in two struggles with Jose Luis Castillo, who arguably wasn't even the best fighter in the division?

Duran and Whitaker both beat the best fighter at 147 in their moves up. They didn't dominate the division, but their welterweight records are better than Mayweather's at 135.

Sure. But who amongst this four stayed and truly dominated a division? The only guy to unify a division was Whitaker. Duran didn't unify it becuase there was only one title, and he held it for a good 7 years as a lightweight. Chavez and Mayweather never unified a division, nor did they ever out and out clean one out like Whitaker and Duran did.

 

actually duran did unify 135 in his last fight with dejesus. but other than that slight oversight excellent post

 

Please Scientist, I think you're getting overly technical when it comes to unification issues.......surely you know that politics plays a great deal with fighters not being able to unify a division......

.....my point on dominating divisions is that the fighter mentioned stayed there for several fights and was the consensus by almost every boxing journalist as the best in the division!

I dont want to get into a tit for tat with you again on Chavez-Whitaker in regards to them not fighting there......we clearly have discussed this issue before.
Chavez left 135 lbs after beating Ramirez, yes who got a gift against Whitaker.........but the bottom line is that by this point, Chavez was established, Whitaker was'nt a Champion, and the more intrigueing fight for all at the time was a showdown for Chavez with who just about everyone at the time considered a more dangerous fighter for Chavez at 140 lbs with Meldrick Taylor.

I think you lose some credibility Scientist, when you accuse Chavez of ducking Whitaker (who was'nt even a champion at the time) to fight a champion with the tools of Meldrick Taylor.
.......I reckon its like criticising Duran for skipping 140 lbs and Aaron Pryor, to fight Sugar Ray Leonard!
.....please, in each case Chavez and Duran are going after the consensus more dangerous, and more importantly the fighter that would put money in their wallets.

Dont even let me get into and bring up once again Whitaker skipping 140 lbs and the Consensus best p4p fighther on the planet, to go up and fight who??????Buddy McGirt at Welter!:roll:

I've spent myself with you debating these points in the past!

 

Ah thanks for the pick up there, he did indeed. Of course, everyone knew Duran was the real champ the whole way through his reign.

 

Too difficult, I think Duran had a bit too much for them but I cant pick between the rest

 

Mayweather by most accounts is 1-1 against a guy that probably shoudln't have even been champ in the first place; I speak of Jose Luis Castillo. Anyone that has seen Castillo's fights with Stevie Johnston knows that he certainly didn't clearly distinguish himself from Stevie Johnston, and in my opinion, Castillo lost to Johnston twice. Mayweather fights him, looks bad both times, has a couple more meaningless fights and then leaves the division. How exactly is that cleaning it out out? How exaclty is that dominating it?

As for Chavez, everyone knows that the biggest threat at lightweight was Whitaker, not Ramirez, not Rosario. Chavez quite clearly did not beat the man thought to be the best in the division or the best next to Chavez himself. He moved up instead. For what was regarded a bigger fight at the time? Sure. But he did not beat the best at 135. That much, is crystal clear.

As for Whitaker bypassing Chavez at 140 and instead fighting Buddy McGirt, sure he did. And guess what? McGirt actually gave Whitaker a better fight than what Chavez did. McGirt was a top 5 fighter p4p at the time himself, and he proved himself more competitive than Chavez against Whitaker by just about everybody's account.

In any case, within a year and a half of leaving the lightweight division, Whitaker and Chavez did finally meet and at a catchweight where Chavez weighed 2 pounds more than what he had weighed for his fights for the previous 4 years. Whitaker weighed three pounds more, but anyone that has watched their fight knows, the weight had NOTHING to do with their performances. Chavez couldn't hit and couldn't even ensnare Whitaker in any position where size and strength COULD have been an issue. :good

 

We can go all night on Chavez-Whitaker as we've done in the past, but its not going to solve anything.......I think looking at it in hindsight, one would have wanted a Chavez-Whitaker fight at 135 lbs to take place......you can rant and rave all you want, seeing a Chavez-Whitaker matchup back then was'nt something that was on anybodies top priority list.
There was'nt any demand for the fight to be made Scientist, and I think you know that.

.....as for Mayweather, if you want to go on pretending he was'nt the best 135 pounder when he was fighting there, I dont know what to tell you.
Clearly he was injured in the first Castillo fight, and he took care of business by dominating Castillo in their rematch.
Lets be real here Scientist, yes he dominated Castillo in their rematch.

Btw, as is customary, we disagree once again on Castillo Johnston.
Close fights, but I had Castillo winning both times!:tong

 

I see chavez defeating Matweather as he defeated unbeaten Merrick Taylor.

 

ppppppppppppp

 

No way was Chavez as adaptable or versatile as Duran. Thats a huggery statement.

 

i think mosley fares better than mayweather would&should be in this instead