LW Tournament Decade's Best: DURAN 1978, CHAVEZ 1987, WHITAKER 1990, MAYWEATHER 2002

Thats just the point, I do consider Duran a true great......but there is also considerable evidence that Duran was a man that lost his mind against defensive minded slicksters with speed and quickness.......The Leonard rematch, the Benitez fight, and stories circulating about Duran even as a lightweight having trouble in the Gym against elusive fighters with speed and quickness, all point to a Duran who's kryptonite was likely defensive slicksters......

During his lightweight years, Duran never faced anyone remotely resembling a Benitez, from what I hear......so how can we know if he would have handled such fighter? We dont!


Chavez on the other hand gets severely underrated on boards like this, because of his one fight with Pernell Whitaker.......its as if the thinking is that since he could'nt handle Whitaker in the same way he handled most of the fighters he fought, he surely cant beat or even compete with the rest of the All-time greats.

My point is'nt that Chavez beats Duran, Whitaker, and Mayweather......
.....but yes sir, Chavez has as good a chance if not better than beating any one of them, as they do him!

There is no question in my mind that Julio Cesar Chavez is a severely underrated fighter on this board.


Btw Scientist, I know you dont underrated him. You I believe just think that highly of Whitaker and Duran......but I've noticed alot of anger and hate for Chavez from alot of people on this board, that for whatever reason extremely underrate him.

Make no mistake, Chavez on any given night, belonged and had just as good a chance as any fighter to beat any fighter in history from 130 lbs to 140 lbs!!!!

You dont go over 90 fights and 3 championship reigns in different weight classes undefeated without being an extremely versatile fighter!
His boxing and defense are extremely underrated!

 

divac didnt you score Chavez vs Pernell for Chavez ?

 

Take Floyd outta there and instead replace him with the 98 Mosley.

Regrdless, it'll come down to either Duran or Whitaker.

Duran beats Chavez by clear decision, and Pea outboxes Mosley clearly. That leaves Duran vs Whitaker, and I think Roberto wins a VERY close, maybe even controversial decision over Pea.

 

I scored the Chavez-Whitaker fight a draw.

Looking at the fight in the overall picture, I thought each fighter won 6 rounds a piece, but Whitaker had two rounds in that fight where he fistically dominated Chavez.
.......because of those two rounds, if I had to pick a winner, those two rounds would tilt it in Whitaker's favor.......
......but as most of us know, fights are judged round by round, and in most cases, even if a couple or rounds stand out more for a particular fighter than the other rounds, most of the time its still a 10-9 round.

Whitaker in my view just was'nt consistently offensive enough in a great many of the rounds.......his punches for the most part even when landind, were ineffective as they carried next to zero leverage on them.

Alot of people fail to credit Chavez' body work and partial connects that were coming in with alot more intensity than Whitaker's actual clean connects.
If the fight was an amatuer bout, where a bomb that knocks you back 5 feet would count the same as a jab that does nothing, it would have gone to Whitaker......but unfortunately for Whitaker, the fight was a professional bout.

......I have a deep dislike for Oscar Delahoya, and I scored his fight with Whitaker with the same criteria that I scored Chavez-Whitaker, and I had DLH winning that fight going away, as did the official judges.

Its my opinion, but I believe had Chavez-Whitaker had been fought in this internet age of boxing forums, where we get to shime in with all sorts of opinions on a bout that just occured........we'd have a more diverse opinion on who won that Chavez-Whitaker fight.....certainly there would be alot more people who would have thought the fight to have been close

......as it is, alot of people back then went by what a story hungry media spewed on the fight.

.....for those who wanted to know and did'nt know. Thats my stand on Chavez-Whitaker. I debated it quite often in this forum, and I dont particularly care to do it in this thread.

 

Floyd beats Sugar @135. Also, as you stated he doesn't put up a better fight than PBF so why replace him in the discussion?

 

Floyd beats Sugar @ 135. Also, as you just wrote he doesn't put up better fight than PBF so why replace him in the discussion?

 

The Leonard rematch wasnt the destruction a lot of people seem to say it was...Roberto took quite a few rounds of Ray and wasnt that far behind, he was starting to get beaten clearly but I just didnt see Ray dominating that badly, he was moving around heaps and taunting but just wasnt that effective overall...I think with where Duran's head was for that fight he would have went on to get beaten but I cant honestly see that as example of what you are trying to highlight. Especially when we are talking about a LW tourney.

There are few ever that match someone like Benitez for pure defensive ability but Roberto did face some guys who were very good defensive fighters and he handled them with his combination of skill and physical strength that made him so formidable at lightweight. Bizzaro, DeJesus, Buchanan, Ray Lampkin was a quality amateur who was a top contender at the time..the Viruiet boys and Mamby werent exactly easy to deal with either.

Sparring is Sparring aswell...There have been a 1000 stories like that, and I have seen with my own eyes fighters who are superior in a real fight have real trouble with defensive minded fighters in a sparring session..At the end of the day few fighters go all out in sparring, and watching a few videos of Duran in sparring he often didnt either..Also running around for only a few rounds with 12 ounce gloves and a headgear to give you extra protection isnt exactly a great indication of how you would go in a long drawn out fight ..Fact is over a 15 round fight Duran was a whole different story.

Chavez is one of the best fighters ever 130-140 absolutely no doubt about that..But if by argueing he doesnt beat guys like Sweet Pea and Duran is that really underrating him? It not as though these are average titlists, these guys are universally recognised as the very best there is at that weight range aswell.
No one is saying he isnt good, great even..Its just watching enough of the others I and many others feel they were just a bit better.

There are very few who I would pick over a prime Chavez..very few.

 

All your points are well taken.......but it says nothing as to why Chavez' performance against Whitaker is held against him, while Duran gets a free ride when he puts up a stinker against Benitez.

Its not just one thing that I'm pointing too against Duran as the more versatile fighter......
I get your point about actual sparring partners that would have dealt Duran grief during a short sparring session, would have gotten massacred by the same Duran over the course of a 12 or 15 round fight.....

......but thats why they're sparring partners......they're not good enough to sustain whatever they do well over the long haul of a fight.
Whatever these slick defensive sparring partners did to Duran over the course of a sparring session, fighters like Whitaker and Mayweather who can sustain the energy both physically and mentally over the course of a full fight, may have done to Duran what its said these sparring partners did to Duran during a short sparring session.

Btw, I agree with the points you made about Duran-Leonard, but I'll point out that Leonard is not in the mold of defensive slicksters like Whitaker, Mayweather and Benitez......
It was the constant movement and circling around the ring that drove Duran nuts......he could'nt get set to punch for the life of him.
......It can be said (and I feel its the case) that Duran was poorly prepared for the Leonard rematch......
.....but then, in a fight where Duran should be extremely motivated after getting butchered in his own country for quitting against Leonard, Duran puts up a stinker, looking inept against Benitez for the juniormiddleweight title.
At this point I have to think its just not Duran all of a sudden losing his boxing attributes......this could very well have been a situation where Duran's style just does'nt lend itself to deal with real masters at defense.

 

Just to let you guys know, if Dinamita does a SFW poll, Arguello is the best!

 

Julio cesar Chavez is the most underrated ATG on ESB IMO.

He rarely wins mythical matches vs other ATGs & the man was hardly ever even run close until he was in his 30s.

The LWT Chavez was a monster, especially in 1987, the match with Whitaker at 147 gets brought up too often, Chavez would have been a different animal at LWT, so would Whitaker but when they fought, Chavez was more past prime & it showed.

Whitakers team wanted no part of Chavez in the late 80s when both were in their prime as JCC was clearly the best p4p fighter on the planet.

Chavez could possibly win this whole ****in tourney but I`ll stick with Duran with Chavez 2nd for the time being.

 

Thankyou BB, thats what I'm talking about!:good

Being that Whitaker's body better handled the weight at 147 lbs, Whitaker laid some hurt on Chavez in two of those rounds I talked about earlier when they fought at Welterweight.......I doubt very seriously that Whitaker's best laid shots would have even had the mustard to make Chavez flinch at 135 lbs!

 

Would've evened itself out as Pea was a more savage puncher at LW. I do agree though, Chavez rarely wins mythical matchups, but he's still highly rated (tp 20 at least) by most on here.

 

Pea, a more savage puncher at 135 lbs?:huh

Thats the first time I've heard Whitaker and savage menitioned in the same sentence!

 

Whitaker and savage have no place being in the same sentence... :nono

Whitaker and wizard is a better relationship in a sentence :good

That's almost as crazy as saying that Mayweather was a savage at 147...

 

Well, you obviously haven't seen any of Pea's k.o's then. I think the poster who goes by the same moniker will agree with me.