Machen - Liston foreshadowed Sonny's Weaknesses ..

I have Patterson-Machen on film. Poor Eddie got outclassed badly. Patterson won nearly every round, too much speed and skill. Eddie got knocked down 4 or 5 times, Ref incorrectly ruled most of them slips. Patterson felt so bad for Eddie, he tried to pick him up off the canvas one of the times. I felt bad for Eddie myself, he had no chance of winning in there.

Also,

I highly doubt Liston winning 9 of 12 rounds vs a prime # 2 ranked heavyweight contender in the world, is exposing his weaknesses. If that were the case, then Spoon opened up a whole lot of weaknesses in Larry Holmes.

 

Clay's weaknesses (eg. getting caught and decked by good left-hookers who had nowhere near the strength, size and power of Liston) kind of cancelled out any reckonings of his movement being much of a weapon to beat Sonny with, in most people's eyes anyway.

Even in hindsight, it's amazing Clay managed to win/Liston managed to lose.

 

You're leaving out that Machen alleged that Liston gave him the blinding liniment treatment after Machen's good first 2 Rds. Said he was doing just fine till his eyes started burning.

 

I've seen the film as well. Is there any point where it looks as if Eddie's eyes are burning or where he is batting at or rubbing his eyes? And when did Machen claim this happened? Right after the fight or years later? And if so, why wait for so many years to reveal something that most would have at least made some mention of to a newsman right after the bout?

 

It is interesting to note, though, that Tony Galento picked Clay to win, basing it in part on Machen's performance against Liston I think.

 

It is very easy to come up with reasons why Machen would not want to say things publicly against Liston's camp. I am sure all those who are not anti-conspiracy nutjobs will come up with plausible reasons.

And if both got a substance from Liston's camp, different reactions can be attributed to various parameters; DIfferent substance or different concentration.

Obviously Clay was more of a problem, and the *******s gave him a higher dose. Clay did not want to come out, and DUndee pushed him. Probably Machen got a lesser concentration or such. Many possibilities.

 

But the burden of proof is on the prosecution, no? So what's the proof that Machen had stuff in his eyes? And what plausible reason could Machen have for being silent about such a thing? Fighters and their managers howl and scream at the slightest infraction or perceived shenanigan and have done so since boxing first began. I see no reason why Machen or his camp would keep quiet about it.

And what makes you think Liston's camp intentionally tried to blind Clay? Nobody thought so at the time. It's only in recent times that it's been said that there was something put intentionally on Sonny's gloves. And that was by a discredited source (Jack McKinney, the same man who brought us the "Sonny slapped Clay" fairytale). Problem is now that it's been suggested it has spread like wildfire as "truth".

I'm not trying to call you out here. I'm just stating the facts

 

And I don't think it's the ANTI-conspiracy people who are the problem. They aren't the ones who spot what appear to be discrepancies in every little thing and then go "AHA!" and start making broadjumps of Olympian proportions all over the conspiracy map. And they don't tend to take quotes from questionable sources YEARS after the fact and spread them as gospel truth. Conspiracy nuts do that as a matter of routine.

I don't know if you're part of that rabidly paranoid sect. I hope you're not anyway:smoke

 

Are you ignorant or desperately trying to be revisionist?

It has to be spelled out to you. Are you 12?
Liston was all mobbed up. Commissions are often all mobbed up. Think a few years on it.

I certainly won't waste my time re Clay being deliberately blinded. Your revisionism here is not worthy of my time. On this there is massive. Only reason CLay/Ali was not afraid to publicly state what he did about Liston was first that he had his own powerful group behind him.

And spare me with what you call "facts." Whose facts? Some people actually believe there is a word of truth on their TVs or history books, etc.

There are more than a few here who are not anti-conspiracy theorists or nutjobs. The others are reduced to desperately holding on to therir absurdities. And using icons and whatnots. To be able to think means to be able to change--to be able to throw out one's most cherished thoughts because they are not thoughts but brainwashed absurdities.

Hallmark of the brainwashed: When suggested that they are brainwashed with nonsense, can only reply, "No, you are trying to brainwash me."

So regurgitating "official" dogma does not impress thinking people. And here one has to really be far gone to believe what got into Ali's eyes was an accident.

 

McGrain,

Pop in the tape again. Patterson won easily..scored a bunch of knockdowns too