Make your case: Convince me Monzon wasnt an average MW Champ

These arguments are awful, his GREATNESS is not debatable at 160, not at all. I welcomed your thread because you said you were 'open-minded', but i smelt u out right away man (read my original post), you havent even replied to that post i made, that's a very good argument to prove Monzon's greatness. You're just simply pointing out his h2h negative points without paying any attention to his positiives or other aspects of greatness, which are clearly outlined in my original post

 

If you're using video footage to say how Monzon isn't that good, then why are you saying how he gets beaten badly by Greb?

 

You're a clown, you cant base greatness just on h2h match-ups that are fantasy. You have been took out here man, no in-fact you are on the ropes, throw in the towel before your opponent opts to take you out the brutal, good old-fashioned way!!!

Seriously though, try being OPEN-MINDED

 

Amazing that anyone thinks Toney would beat up a very good middleweight.

he conclusively proved when he actually fought there that it was beyond his ability to do so.

 

Monzon would mess Toney up badly. As for him not having one-punch KO power, watch the Benvenuti fight. And that was the 12th round, showing another one of his strong attributes: stamina. I agree that Monzon doesn't look impressive on first sight, but most of his attributes you don't see easily. Stamina, strength, heavy handedness, an iron chin, good but no flashy defence, perfect gameplan and adaptability.


As others have said, a lot of middleweights built their resume on smaller guys. Hagler had Duran (135, not exactly an easy fight), Leonard (147, a close loss) and Hearns (147). Hopkins had DeLa Hoya (147) and Trinidad (147). Valdez and Briscoe were outstanding middleweights; Napoles and Griffith were great welterweights.

He's not the fastest, but for a speedy guy that got hit a lot and no one punch KO power, he sure must have been lucky to make it through every single one of those fights without getting knocked out, let alone lose.

Since when is having one-punch KO power the criterium anyway? That instantly disqualifies Hopkins, Greb, Hagler and a ton of others.

If Toney was better, then why couldn't he go a few years without a close fight or defeat? McCallum I & II, Johnson, Griffin I & II, Thadzi, Tiberi, Williams, Mcgroom, etc all made it to a damn close fight if not a victory. Now i'm not saying that a fighter should always win, but if Monzon had all of those weaknesses, why did he not have a single close fight like those once he hit his prime? Ok, Briscoe, so that's one. And don't come with "he had weak opposition": the opponents i just mentioned were nothing special.

 

.............Before we do ****...........what's in it for us?

 

It seems to me that the thread starter already has his mind made up as to what he thinks of Carlos, and no matter how detailed and informative any replies will be I doubt he will change his mind, but what the hell I`ll bite. I`ll just post my own thoughts of the man and you can take that for whats its worth, but I am curious to know which fights of his you have watched in their entirety, as the best of Monzon on film was early in his title reign, mainly the two Benvenuti fights and the first Griffith fight.

In those fights he was more of an aggressive stalker looking to take the fight to his opponents rather than the more laid back, counter-puncher he became after that bullet got lodged in his shoulder courtesy of his wife. The fact that he was still as successful as he was with a bullet in his body is a testament to just how great a fighter he was, that he could adapt his style and still be successful and become a long reigning champion. The one fight of his that might, just might sway your opinion of the man but which you won`t get a chance to watch is a film that shows 8 of the 15 rounds of his return match against Bennie Briscoe.

You can see the fight much more clearly than on that 8mm version, as this was a TV camera that was taping and not a hand held one from someone in the crowd were the 8mm originated from. It shows rounds 1,5 to 10, 15 and lasts just under half and hour, and Monzon did some paintjob on Bennie that night by looking at this film. Besides the first round which he clearly lost, Carlos was in control throughout rounds five to ten, and also clearly won the final round.

Monzon was staggered about halfway into the 9th round by a right cross from Bennie as he was throwing his own right, and then a follow up left hook also landed on Monzon. Unfortunately for Bennie, Monzon had regained his senses almost immediately from that right hand which staggered him, a punch that woud have felled a grizzly bear.

Monzon did win that round even though he got stunned by Bennie, as that was Briscoe`s only shining moment in what was an otherwise one-sided round in Monzon`s favour. He came back aggressively at Briscoe in the 10th which he won clearly, and even staggered him with a right of his own high on the temple and then a follow up right on the chin with about 5 seconds to go in the round staggered Bennie into a corner but the bell rung to save him.

You mentioned how much more impressive Hagler is to you on film, but it is interesting to compare how differently Carlos and Marvin handled different versions of Bennie Briscoe. Carlos threw a constant barrage of jabs, left hooks and right crosses at a peak, ever advancing and highly motivated and determined Briscoe, and also landed several jarring left/right uppercuts during the fight and timed them so that Bennie often leaned right into them while he was doing his bob n` weave while coming in.

He would also hit Briscoe to the body repeatedly whenever they got into a clinch, and would then push him back and spin out of harm`s way and resume his measured attack. He had such an impeccable sense of timing and distance Monzon did, and I strongly disagree when Monzon is accused of having hands that are slow as molasses.

When he felt like it he could easily throw hard, fast and most importantly accurate punches at his opponents, and would do so in combinations no less while being able to keep it up for fifteen rounds against a hungry, hard hitting and ever advancing opponent. He did some paintjob on Briscoe that night, and he skillfully leaned back and away from most of what was thrown his direction by Briscoe.

The reason I think some posters are under the impression Carlos was slow was that he would often throw lazy punches... but that was a ploy as he would do so to lower his opponents guard by making them feel more confident about coming in on him, and then suddenly BAM!! Monzon lands a series of two, three or even four punches on his foe who is still getting hit while trying to dodge away from the punches coming his way. That is how good Monzon`s sense of timing was, truly masterful.

Now Hagler on the other hand fougt a completely different fight against a Briscoe that was running on fumes by then and who was to lose 7 of the remaining 13 bouts of his career after fighting Hagler. He boxed cautiously for most of the fight, and fought Briscoe from a distance although he did fight him in the trenches sporadically.

But it was clear that Briscoe, while old and his best days far behind him, was the stronger man of the two which is why Hagler fought him the way he did. Yet Monzon had easily manhandled a much younger and stronger version of Briscoe years earlier, and had also done so with Valdez in both of their encounters... and Rodrigo was a strong guy himself as he manhandled Briscoe on the inside in their three fights!

So with that said I don`t foresee Monzon having much difficulty tying up Halger whenever he got inside on him, and he would also hit him when in close quarters every chance he got. He would also time Hagler with hard and accurate counters as he would be trying to work his way in, and coming in he would have to do on the taller, rangier Monzon as he sure as hell ain`t going to outbox him from long range which is where Carlos was at his best.

I mean honestly, how fast was Hagler really? From what I've seen of him, which is a fair bit....I wouldn't rate him as fast. He could throw punches no doubt, but if I was praising Hagler, speed would be a bit down the list. Chin, stamina, killer instinct and heart would be his main assets. He certainly wasn't speedy against Ray or Roberto....do we have to assume that the Hagler that could beat Monzon, is the one that Beat Minter?

Hagler looked very impressive against Minter granted, and that version of his would give Carlos a much harder fight than any other, but I can confidently say that the Monzon who fought Briscoe in their return bout would have beaten the Hagler of the Minter fight or any other fight for that matter. King Carlos to me is just that slight step above Hagler on the totem pole of all-time great middleweights, as he made it look sooo simple against some hard, rugged and talented fighters.

His jab was textbook, and his right hand was too. His hook was sweeping not sharp, although it was still very accurate and it led you to the right which was his style. He had great ring command and both offensive and his defensive timing was especially impressive, as he would often lean away from punches that would miss him by an inch or so, and he would and could lean away from several punches in a row. He also had an uncanny ability of always stepping in and out of position at just the right distance, so that his opponents where always within his punching range and not out of his reach.

Anyways, thats all I got to say about the man, although I doubt it has changed your opinion of him.

 

Really enjoyed the assessment RB...and that's a great avatar too!:good

 

Hey bud, how you been? Thanks for the kudos on my analysis, although I doubt that Tampa Nights will be swayed by my post. As for the avatar I rather enjoy it myself, now if I can only manage to trach down a copy of the fight that would definately make my day! Perhaps one day, until then the search continues.... on a sidenote did you get around to watching all those dvds I sent you a while ago?

 

I've seen quite a few of them, RB...absolutely great stuff! Very happy with the order!Things have been hectic, but no complaints on my end. Hope all is well with you!

 

Glad to hear you are enjoying the dvd`s, although I am not surprised to hear you haven`t gotten around to watching them all yet, thats a lot of fights to watch! As for my end I have been very busy of late, working 55-60 hours a week has been the norm for me the last several weeks, which is why I rarely take the time to post anymore even though I`d like too. Other than that I`ve been doing good, and things should quite down sometime in the next few weeks at work which means I`ll be able to post more often.

 

At first glance i thought Monzon was pretty ordinary. It's his lack of flashiness that fools so many. Monzon's fights are fought on a very sublime level most of the time but the truth is always in the results when it comes to king Carlos. Arguello too is one who seems not particulary awesome when not exhibiting his bone breaking power, but he too is very similar in ways.