Manila

,,or it could be he was getting paid ? Pacheco said they all knew Ali was shot to pieces . Protecting him? by walking into the ring with a brain damaged fighter against a prime Easton Assassin ? I never want help like that....

 

Was Manny Seamon a leech for working in Joe Louis's corner when Joe was obviously a shot fighter? Exactly what qualifies a cornerman for "leech" designation? How about Ray Robinson's cornermen in the years 1960-65? Didn't Sugar Ray end up punchy? Don't a lot of fighters? Is it
a cornerman's moral responsibility to refuse work when he believes the fighter is going to lose badly?Pacheco was a doctor; Dundee was a trainer. Is there a difference? I'd like to know who was on Ezzard Charles's payroll in the years 1956-59. Who else deserves blame for what happened to Ali? What about his wife? Does the blame extend to the broadcast team at the Holmes fight? How about the fans who bought tickets?

 

Pacheco once talked about a chat he had with Ali after Norton 3 in the dressing room, saying how we thought he lost and got really lucky tonight, Ali agreed with him and said he'd retire...then the likes of Bundini and Wali came in saying how great the champ was and how he easily deserved the win, etc. Ali's tone/mood soon changed and he decided that they were right and he and Ferdie got it wrong.

 

Definitely but Ali fooled some of the people even then. Example:

Eddie Mustapha Muhammad: "Ali will shut Holmes big mouth, Ali by KO"

(but not all)

Billy Joel: "Holmes will win easy".

 

Manilla was one fight where I think his fundamentals actually looked quite good.

 

It's shocking he got a UD you mean. Not only did he get outlanded by Earnie, but outland by much bigger shots, while offering little in return for the most part (grand effort in the final round by Ali, mind, proving his immense heart) but still a roundly booed decision by many in attendance.

 

I still remember this comment although it was said 46 years ago. I was watching the Ali-Shavers fight on TV and a clearly slowed down Ali was getting nailed on the button and staggered by the heaviest puncher ever. Then in the late rounds Ali staged a miraculous rally and the guy I was with, who didn't like Ali, marveled, "That ****** ain't human" It was an appalling racist comment of open admiration.

 

Yes. I don't doubt that Bundini was genuinely fond of Muhammad but he was still a leech.

I've always gone along with the school of thought that Muhammad really wanted to retire after Manila but he felt that he had to keep going for the sake of his ever growing entourage. Wrong priority but that's what it was.

 

Herbert Muhammad was a prime perpetrator.

Is it actually true that he signalled Dundee to finally stop the Holmes’ fight - or is that myth?

If true, then one can only ask - WTF was that about?

When to stop the fight should’ve only been subject to Dundee’s call and judgment - and I hope Dundee wasn’t delaying the call in deference to Herbert.

That fight should’ve been stopped at least several rounds earlier.

Even when it was, that d-headed leech Bundini was crying, pulling at Dundee, begging him not to stop it.

I’m surprised that Ali only clouted Bundini in the ring on about 2 occasions. Brown deserved a lot more clouts than that.

 

On the night of the Holmes-Ali fight I wish that Angelo had smashed Bundini in the mouth when the latter was trying to get Ali to come out for the eleventh. And,yes,it should have been stopped a lot earlier.

 

After Zaire, who launched Muhammad Ali into orbit, Frazier remained. Frazier, who theoretically could knock down the legendary Ali. Until Manila, however, Frazier also boxed 1:1, and Frazier had all the legitimate rights to a third fight. But he could retire after that.
If not Muhammad Ali should have retired after the third fight with Ken Norton (similar, but nowhere near the same situation as with Frazier).
After that came damage to Ali's health in the form of Shavers.