Manny Pacquiao and RJJ are the two best p4p fighters of my lifetime

Don't forget that Bob Fitzsimmons won titles at middleweight and heavyweight. Technically, James Toney pulled the same trick off John Ruiz as Jones, but he got popped for roids. Jones just didn't get caught, that time.

 

My issue with RJJ is about how much of that was natural and how much came out of a bottle.
Same thing with legends like Holyfield, C. Lewis, Muhlegg, Griffith-Joyner, Contador, Merkx, B. Johnson, Pechstein, M. Jones, Gay, Bonds, Rodriquez and Armstrong... how much of their athletic abilities were natural, and how much was because of captain america serum?

 

That's part of my issue with Hopkins and Mayweather.

 

Hard to imagine any middleweight to light heavyweight in boxing history beating peak Roy with his unreal combination of speed, power, and reflexes.

Pacquiao though, did you forget he was handily outboxed by one Floyd Mayweather? Do you really think four years earlier he had the skill and technique to get to and beat Floyd? If you want to be on the Manny over Floyd team you're usually going to say he should be greater because of his overall career accomplishments, but you're actually saying he was so obviously more unbeatable than Floyd at their respective peaks? More evidence please? Don't pretend Floyd didn't also move up and beat bigger men.

 

I definitely think 2007-2012 Pacquiao beats Mayweather. Same as how 1993-2004 Roy Jones beats Hopkins. A 2010 Jones and a 2015 Pacquiao are both mostly washed up past prime, and probably no longer using PEDs, whereas their opponents were likely juiced to their eyeballs and less diminished. Also, I believe Pacquiao had a torn rotator cuff which limited what he could do that night. The lateness of the Pac/Floyd and Jones/Hopkins 2 fights has no bearing on what a prime fight would have looked like.

 

I agree with you about Mayweather but I can think of plenty of light-heavies that would take Jones apart although I don't think he was prime at 175.

 

No. Floyd is. Carry on.

 

How? That same Pac would still have no answer for PBF's ability to control range and dictate distance on him that is the key to this fight. Still was a sucker for the right hand and was still having JMM problems.

 

Ok Manny would've been a bit faster especially with his footwork had the fight happened when it should've before 2012. But four years would not have made a radical difference, the result was always going to be the same. Even if you want to argue he was a bit less effective Manny still fought the same damn way. Manny hadn't shown before he could handle a great distance boxer, who can move and jab, and mix in rights as he gets in close. Morales outboxed him, Marquez largely did, and Floyd did even more easily. And the thing the Manny believers don't notice is that was Floyd in first gear. If Manny was faster and fought a bit smarter Floyd would've been forced to bring out his sharp, countering best, timing him hard behind on-point defence.

You and many Pac believers take the Marquez loss as damaging Pac for Floyd, yet seem to think it was a fluke that it happened. In fact Marquez showed that at his best Manny was really vulnerable to a smart, accurate boxer. Peak Pac showed obvious weaknesses that Floyd was always going to capitalise on. Beating Hatton, Cotto, Clottey, and Margarito was a run that he deserves all the props he gets for, but using lateral movement and combination punching so successfully against those relative stationary targets doesn't mean for a second he could do so against a better boxer mover, and Floyd's the best damn boxer mover in the last 30 years.

 

Then what are you saying? You don't mention career accomplishments and you say this isn't about h2h best? Don't you mean you think peak Pac is more unbeatable than anyone except RJJ, including Floyd?

 

If not accomplishments, h2h prediction, or peak ability, what's your point? Should the thread instead just be titled "Manny Pacquiao and RJJ are the two fighters I most enjoy masturbating to"?

 

It's hard to imagine Roy beating Mike Spinks, Bob Foster, Eddie Mustafa Muhammed , just to name some and a few others at light heavy