Manny Pacquiao and RJJ are the two best p4p fighters of my lifetime

His output was half what it was at his peak by 2015. That's going to make a pretty massive difference. He's a completely different animal by 2015.

I couldn't disagree more. With two fighters of similar level ability like those two the result always differs wildly when you repeat the experiment. You don't even have to look at history to see that. You can just look at these two fighter's records and see how different the outcomes were when they fought opponents multiple times. Or you could look at Jones Jr and Hopkins, which I mentioned earlier.

A bit? Go watch Pacquiao versus Cotto, Margarito, or De La Hoya and tell me you think he's only "a bit less effective" by the time Floyd got to him.

Night and day. You couldn't get much more different between the style of fighter Manny was and the one he's become.

Unless you count De La Hoya, Barrera, Morales, Marquez, Mosley, and Cotto.

I didn't see the fight, but the old Mayweather didn't have a lot of gears to go through. He'd seen his best days years before too. I'm not sure he had much more to give than that pathetic first gear people talk about. Assuming that he even had a second gear he never showed by that point seems like fanatical well wishing. Sounds like what you got was two old guys who couldn't perform anymore stinking up the joint.

I don't subscribe to triangle theory and Mayweather is not Marquez. I know that Pac had trouble with Marquez, but that's all I know. I don't know that it says anything about how he'd match up with other counter punchers.

And I don't think the knockout damaged Pac as much as the dozen wars he'd been in, the injuries he'd amassed, the time which had slowed his reflexes, and his concentration on politics over athletics. I also think a big factor in his decline was that he stopped taking steroids around 2009-2010, while his opponents never stopped.

He deserves props for beating the daylights out of De La Hoya, Morales, Barrera, and Marquez. They were boxers. They were movers. You are basically making a strawman here. I didn't suggest that Mayweather had only ever fought no talent punching bags like Maidana, Guerrero, Berto, Ortiz, and McGregor. Neither Mayweather or Pacquiao were limited. In their primes they were as elite as it gets. Although, I'm not prepared to go as far as you did saying that Mayweather was the best boxer mover of the last 30 years. I think Pernell Whitaker was better.

 

That's an issue you have to have with almost every great champion of the last 30 years. Most were caught and more still were suspicious.

 

If Pac is with RJJ "p4p the best" are you not saying at his best he would beat anyone who isn't bigger than him? Including Mayweather? As unstoppable as he looked against Barrera at 126 he didn't look so unbeatable getting outboxed much of the way by Marquez and only getting a draw, then a favourable decision at 130. Mayweather was at his athletic peak only a super featherweight, so you can't say he's so naturally bigger than beating Pac doesn't matter. As good as Pac was at his physical best at 126, he wasn't as good as Mayweather or Loma at 130, and that simply means he ain't in the way you call him "p4p the best".

By the way, it doesn't make sense to call bigger fighters "better" just because you think they'd beat smaller fighters.

 

There have been a bazillion Floyd vs Pac threads, we should be done with rehashing what's been gone over before. But: you haven't even seen Mayweather-Pacquiao? Don't you think actually watching the fight might be a good idea if you're going to talk about whether Pacquiao was such a different fighter, or if he could beat Mayweather at all?

Jones-Hopkins 2 was a whole 17 years after the first one, no it isn't relevant to comparing Pac and Mayweather. You'd be hard pressed to find a boxer who had improved over that length of time as much as Hopkins, and you'll seldom find a boxer who had declined so drastically since his prime as Jones. Sure we often get different results in a rematch after a first close fight between fighters of similar level: but there are also many fighters of supposed similar level who when they meet we find out in fact aren't, and MAYWEATHER WAS A LEVEL ABOVE PACQUIAIO.

I wasn't suggesting guys like Cotto were defenceless bums. I said they were RELATIVELY stationary targets. Relative meaning compared to the styles of Morales and Marquez. Cotto was really skilled but he wasn't predominantly a mover. Barrera too while he's a versatile boxer isn't an outboxer. Oscar was a shell of himself and I don't rate him as a great win for Pac.

If Pac's going to be called one of the greats and on Mayweather's level you can't point to his performances against movers Morales and Marquez as successes. Morales and Marquez used their legs to make use of range and find punching angles to beat or disputedly draw with Pac. Anyone who had seen Pacquaio against Morales and Marquez could see they as boxer movers clearly troubled and in fact exposed him. Mayweather was at every point in his career a better outside boxer than Morales and Marquez, as great as they both were. Therefore Mayweather You are naive and unwilling to acknowledge Pacquiao's flaws if you think Marquez just had his number.

We can't determine whether Pac had declined or how much from the Mayweather fight because Mayweather sure ain't as I'll say again the relative stationary target Cotto, Margarito and others were. Of course Pac's output was going to be less against Mayweather, as was the output of so many others against Floyd. Check it out sometime, it was a masterful boxing lesson.

 

I think there's a difference between being exciting and being sound. The two fighters the OP praised were both incredibly exciting, but both had visible fundamental flaws. Flaws they masked through sheer athleticism, especially RJJ, and extreme will, particularly Pac.

The best fighters of my lifetime, pound for pound, were Sugar Ray Leonard and Floyd Mayweather. Both were able to be brilliant as their athleticism left them. They were technically sound as well as physically gifted.

I also understand this is a completely subjective list.

 

You make great points. No doubt. SRL is a bit before my time (I'm in my early 40s), but I remember watching his Hagler and Norris fights live, as well as Hearns 2. So I've gone back and watched a lot of his fights on YouTube.

I would say the two you picked were the most explosive fighters of my lifetime. Fights could end at a moment's notice with either in the ring and you were more likely to see something amazing with them in the ring than any others.

 

Pac is a BUM. Cheater, poor sport, and many of his opponents were paid well to lay down.

 

I can agree with you but some wouldn't...

 

Tinman is going to name the two fighters who probably did the most PEDs in boxing history lmao

Hell manny has kidney problems and a heart condition like Evander Holyfield.