Manny Pacquiao: Has he really moved up and fought the best as fans say?

chimba · Nov 3, 2009

Sweet Pea Pacquiao said: ↑

Time to get owned. From your statements it's clear you didn't watch boxing at the time, or if you did, only watched Roy Jones fight subpar competition at that stage in his career when after moving up to 175 to fight Griffin and Hill got too comfortable taking HBO's money and fighting guys with great records but no real substance. Oh, and so you can go draw a timeline, that's 1998-2003 (until he fought Ruiz at heavy, a true challenge). I'll estimate you were about 11-12 years old at the time. Go get a crayon.

To show you a parallel and how time works, Pacquiao was 19 years old when he fought at 112 in 1998, the same year Jones fought Virgil Hill in what should've been the prime of Roy's career. He defeated Sasakul, who the LINEAR champion and held a win over Yuri Arbachakov, who was arguably the #1 or #2 flyweight in the world based on Ring Magazine. For you to imply that Sasakul was a bum says it all. At flyweight he fought the best available.

Then three years later in JUNE 2001 he moved up to 122 and in his first fight in America, destroyed IBF champ Lehlo Ledwaba, who had reached a peak of #6 at one point in USA Today's Super Six P4P list (Dan Rafael's old newspaper before he moved on to ESPN) and was consensus Top 15.

Here's where you get exposed like the idiot you are. You say Vazquez was rated higher than Ledwaba so Pac avoided him.

BUT at the time Pac KO'd him, LL had defended his belt FIVE TIMES, and VAZQUEZ hadn't even fought for a world title yet!!! And yet you argue he was rated higher than Ledwaba? Israel is a hell of a fighter and person, but at the time he was an unknown...and get this...PACQUIAO'S SPARMATE FOR LEDWABA. How do I know this? Because I SAW THEM SPAR AT THE WILD CARD DURING THAT TIME!!! :rofl

I'm not done with you yet. You bring up Ayala, which seems on the surface to be a valid argument, but again, you probably weren't really watching boxing at the time, so it's ok. Ayala had fought at 118 and a catchweight ABOVE 122 when he fought Tapia twice. Talks had begun with Pacquiao's handler, Murad Muhammad in 2001, but instead of fighting Manny immediately after his first fight with Bones Adams, which was proposed, Ayala CHOSE to give Adams a rematch instead because he had only won by SD.

Then by the time Ayala was done, did he pursue the Pac fight? NO, he moved up to fight Erik Morales instead for more money and the WBC featherweight title, which again, if you ever followed boxing, would understand that Pac was still an unknown compared to Morales who had a huge following and was P4P by then.

Meanwhile, Manny stayed at 122 and tried to unify with Agapito Sanchez's WBO belt, arguably the #2 super bantam at the time. So fighting Ledwaba and Sanchez constituted fighting the best available. Larios was the other option and there is one fighter I can say no serious talks ever had been made. But they ended up fighting anyway albeit later.

Then for you to say he didn't fight the best at 126 or 130 because they were past prime, you're a moron. Barrera was the champ by virtue of beating Hamed, and he lost. He was the BEST FEATHERWEIGHT in the world at the time. Oh yeah, Barrera won 2 belts at 130 AFTER getting destroyed by Pac, so there goes your "washed up" argument. And unlike RJJ never fighting Daruisz Michalczewski, the only challenge left at 175 aside from Tarver, Pac fought Marquez and even gave him a second chance at 130. More than I can say for Roy. Then throw in HOF Morales, whom he split the first 2 with and fought the third (the third is the only fight I feel he was truly shot) because Morales had shown him the respect to give Manny a rematch after the first fight. He didn't fight the best at 126-130? STFU.

I don't think anyone on this board would argue that he fought the best at 135. I sure don't. But if you're gonna sit here and tell me he was unjustified in fighting Oscar De La Hoya for the biggest payday of his career while still having the burden of moving up TWELVE POUNDS and TWO WEIGHT CLASSES.

140 you at least acknowledged Pac fighting the best, but you only did that because you wanted to look half-******ed, and not expose the fully empty cavity you call a skull.

You won't give credit for 147 unless he beats Cotto, or whatever your nonsensical argument is.

Oh, and for the record, Cotto will be the 12th World Champ Pac has fought (he has beaten 10 so far).

Wow, that was easy. Now go formulate another stupid angle to attack Pacquiao's resume, because this one is officially dead. :hi:
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Post of the year. No Joke

zangetsu · Nov 3, 2009

Sweet Pea Pacquiao said: ↑

Time to get owned. From your statements it's clear you didn't watch boxing at the time, or if you did, only watched Roy Jones fight subpar competition at that stage in his career when after moving up to 175 to fight Griffin and Hill got too comfortable taking HBO's money and fighting guys with great records but no real substance. Oh, and so you can go draw a timeline, that's 1998-2003 (until he fought Ruiz at heavy, a true challenge). I'll estimate you were about 11-12 years old at the time. Go get a crayon.

To show you a parallel and how time works, Pacquiao was 19 years old when he fought at 112 in 1998, the same year Jones fought Virgil Hill in what should've been the prime of Roy's career. He defeated Sasakul, who the LINEAR champion and held a win over Yuri Arbachakov, who was arguably the #1 or #2 flyweight in the world based on Ring Magazine. For you to imply that Sasakul was a bum says it all. At flyweight he fought the best available.

Then three years later in JUNE 2001 he moved up to 122 and in his first fight in America, destroyed IBF champ Lehlo Ledwaba, who had reached a peak of #6 at one point in USA Today's Super Six P4P list (Dan Rafael's old newspaper before he moved on to ESPN) and was consensus Top 15.

Here's where you get exposed like the idiot you are. You say Vazquez was rated higher than Ledwaba so Pac avoided him.

BUT at the time Pac KO'd him, LL had defended his belt FIVE TIMES, and VAZQUEZ hadn't even fought for a world title yet!!! And yet you argue he was rated higher than Ledwaba? Israel is a hell of a fighter and person, but at the time he was an unknown...and get this...PACQUIAO'S SPARMATE FOR LEDWABA. How do I know this? Because I SAW THEM SPAR AT THE WILD CARD DURING THAT TIME!!! :rofl

I'm not done with you yet. You bring up Ayala, which seems on the surface to be a valid argument, but again, you probably weren't really watching boxing at the time, so it's ok. Ayala had fought at 118 and a catchweight ABOVE 122 when he fought Tapia twice. Talks had begun with Pacquiao's handler, Murad Muhammad in 2001, but instead of fighting Manny immediately after his first fight with Bones Adams, which was proposed, Ayala CHOSE to give Adams a rematch instead because he had only won by SD.

Then by the time Ayala was done, did he pursue the Pac fight? NO, he moved up to fight Erik Morales instead for more money and the WBC featherweight title, which again, if you ever followed boxing, would understand that Pac was still an unknown compared to Morales who had a huge following and was P4P by then.

Meanwhile, Manny stayed at 122 and tried to unify with Agapito Sanchez's WBO belt, arguably the #2 super bantam at the time. So fighting Ledwaba and Sanchez constituted fighting the best available. Larios was the other option and there is one fighter I can say no serious talks ever had been made. But they ended up fighting anyway albeit later.

Then for you to say he didn't fight the best at 126 or 130 because they were past prime, you're a moron. Barrera was the champ by virtue of beating Hamed, and he lost. He was the BEST FEATHERWEIGHT in the world at the time. Oh yeah, Barrera won 2 belts at 130 AFTER getting destroyed by Pac, so there goes your "washed up" argument. And unlike RJJ never fighting Daruisz Michalczewski, the only challenge left at 175 aside from Tarver, Pac fought Marquez and even gave him a second chance at 130. More than I can say for Roy. Then throw in HOF Morales, whom he split the first 2 with and fought the third (the third is the only fight I feel he was truly shot) because Morales had shown him the respect to give Manny a rematch after the first fight. He didn't fight the best at 126-130? STFU.

I don't think anyone on this board would argue that he fought the best at 135. I sure don't. But if you're gonna sit here and tell me he was unjustified in fighting Oscar De La Hoya for the biggest payday of his career while still having the burden of moving up TWELVE POUNDS and TWO WEIGHT CLASSES.

140 you at least acknowledged Pac fighting the best, but you only did that because you wanted to look half-******ed, and not expose the fully empty cavity you call a skull.

You won't give credit for 147 unless he beats Cotto, or whatever your nonsensical argument is.

Oh, and for the record, Cotto will be the 12th World Champ Pac has fought (he has beaten 10 so far).

Wow, that was easy. Now go formulate another stupid angle to attack Pacquiao's resume, because this one is officially dead. :hi:
Click to expand...

Thanks. I enjoyed reading it.

blur · Nov 3, 2009

total ownage:rofl

DeanoFlash · Nov 3, 2009

delete

PATSYS · Nov 3, 2009

Partaxian said: ↑

122 - Sure it was stacked in talent, but we gotta remember that Pac didnt call the shots back then, it wasnt easy to make fights. Still, he fought top 15 p4p Ledwaba & prime Agapito Sanchez. Sure he missed out some names but he sure did fight SOME of the best. YES!

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Exactly.

Pac too the fight on a 2 weeks notices and at a minimal purse just to get his shot.

AdiC · Nov 3, 2009

Why does Pugilist keep making threads discrediting Pacquiao's achievement?

AdiC · Nov 3, 2009

Wow, just read how Pugilist got owned! I would leave ESB if I was Owned like that. Bwahaha....

tolindoy · Nov 3, 2009

lol @ TS getting owned, just like floyd got owned by RA....BIG TIME!!!

let me repeat this once again to the haters.....RIGHT NOW, *******S HAVE THE BRAGGING RIGHTS, until then, STFU!!! lol

bladerunner · Nov 3, 2009

Sweet Pea Pacquiao said: ↑

Time to get owned. From your statements it's clear you didn't watch boxing at the time, or if you did, only watched Roy Jones fight subpar competition at that stage in his career when after moving up to 175 to fight Griffin and Hill got too comfortable taking HBO's money and fighting guys with great records but no real substance. Oh, and so you can go draw a timeline, that's 1998-2003 (until he fought Ruiz at heavy, a true challenge). I'll estimate you were about 11-12 years old at the time. Go get a crayon.

To show you a parallel and how time works, Pacquiao was 19 years old when he fought at 112 in 1998, the same year Jones fought Virgil Hill in what should've been the prime of Roy's career. He defeated Sasakul, who the LINEAR champion and held a win over Yuri Arbachakov, who was arguably the #1 or #2 flyweight in the world based on Ring Magazine. For you to imply that Sasakul was a bum says it all. At flyweight he fought the best available.

Then three years later in JUNE 2001 he moved up to 122 and in his first fight in America, destroyed IBF champ Lehlo Ledwaba, who had reached a peak of #6 at one point in USA Today's Super Six P4P list (Dan Rafael's old newspaper before he moved on to ESPN) and was consensus Top 15.

Here's where you get exposed like the idiot you are. You say Vazquez was rated higher than Ledwaba so Pac avoided him.

BUT at the time Pac KO'd him, LL had defended his belt FIVE TIMES, and VAZQUEZ hadn't even fought for a world title yet!!! And yet you argue he was rated higher than Ledwaba? Israel is a hell of a fighter and person, but at the time he was an unknown...and get this...PACQUIAO'S SPARMATE FOR LEDWABA. How do I know this? Because I SAW THEM SPAR AT THE WILD CARD DURING THAT TIME!!! :rofl

I'm not done with you yet. You bring up Ayala, which seems on the surface to be a valid argument, but again, you probably weren't really watching boxing at the time, so it's ok. Ayala had fought at 118 and a catchweight ABOVE 122 when he fought Tapia twice. Talks had begun with Pacquiao's handler, Murad Muhammad in 2001, but instead of fighting Manny immediately after his first fight with Bones Adams, which was proposed, Ayala CHOSE to give Adams a rematch instead because he had only won by SD.

Then by the time Ayala was done, did he pursue the Pac fight? NO, he moved up to fight Erik Morales instead for more money and the WBC featherweight title, which again, if you ever followed boxing, would understand that Pac was still an unknown compared to Morales who had a huge following and was P4P by then.

Meanwhile, Manny stayed at 122 and tried to unify with Agapito Sanchez's WBO belt, arguably the #2 super bantam at the time. So fighting Ledwaba and Sanchez constituted fighting the best available. Larios was the other option and there is one fighter I can say no serious talks ever had been made. But they ended up fighting anyway albeit later.

Then for you to say he didn't fight the best at 126 or 130 because they were past prime, you're a moron. Barrera was the champ by virtue of beating Hamed, and he lost. He was the BEST FEATHERWEIGHT in the world at the time. Oh yeah, Barrera won 2 belts at 130 AFTER getting destroyed by Pac, so there goes your "washed up" argument. And unlike RJJ never fighting Daruisz Michalczewski, the only challenge left at 175 aside from Tarver, Pac fought Marquez and even gave him a second chance at 130. More than I can say for Roy. Then throw in HOF Morales, whom he split the first 2 with and fought the third (the third is the only fight I feel he was truly shot) because Morales had shown him the respect to give Manny a rematch after the first fight. He didn't fight the best at 126-130? STFU.

I don't think anyone on this board would argue that he fought the best at 135. I sure don't. But if you're gonna sit here and tell me he was unjustified in fighting Oscar De La Hoya for the biggest payday of his career while still having the burden of moving up TWELVE POUNDS and TWO WEIGHT CLASSES.

140 you at least acknowledged Pac fighting the best, but you only did that because you wanted to look half-******ed, and not expose the fully empty cavity you call a skull.

You won't give credit for 147 unless he beats Cotto, or whatever your nonsensical argument is.

Oh, and for the record, Cotto will be the 12th World Champ Pac has fought (he has beaten 10 so far).

Wow, that was easy. Now go formulate another stupid angle to attack Pacquiao's resume, because this one is officially dead. :hi:
Click to expand...

Damn you went RA on his ass.

Blue_Ray · Nov 3, 2009

Rooney said: ↑

The worse comeback of the year:deal

Click to expand...

This is the only thing you can say? :huh

tay sachs · Nov 3, 2009

Sweet Pea Pacquiao said: ↑

Time to get owned. From your statements it's clear you didn't watch boxing at the time, or if you did, only watched Roy Jones fight subpar competition at that stage in his career when after moving up to 175 to fight Griffin and Hill got too comfortable taking HBO's money and fighting guys with great records but no real substance. Oh, and so you can go draw a timeline, that's 1998-2003 (until he fought Ruiz at heavy, a true challenge). I'll estimate you were about 11-12 years old at the time. Go get a crayon.

To show you a parallel and how time works, Pacquiao was 19 years old when he fought at 112 in 1998, the same year Jones fought Virgil Hill in what should've been the prime of Roy's career. He defeated Sasakul, who the LINEAR champion and held a win over Yuri Arbachakov, who was arguably the #1 or #2 flyweight in the world based on Ring Magazine. For you to imply that Sasakul was a bum says it all. At flyweight he fought the best available.

Then three years later in JUNE 2001 he moved up to 122 and in his first fight in America, destroyed IBF champ Lehlo Ledwaba, who had reached a peak of #6 at one point in USA Today's Super Six P4P list (Dan Rafael's old newspaper before he moved on to ESPN) and was consensus Top 15.

Here's where you get exposed like the idiot you are. You say Vazquez was rated higher than Ledwaba so Pac avoided him.

BUT at the time Pac KO'd him, LL had defended his belt FIVE TIMES, and VAZQUEZ hadn't even fought for a world title yet!!! And yet you argue he was rated higher than Ledwaba? Israel is a hell of a fighter and person, but at the time he was an unknown...and get this...PACQUIAO'S SPARMATE FOR LEDWABA. How do I know this? Because I SAW THEM SPAR AT THE WILD CARD DURING THAT TIME!!! :rofl

I'm not done with you yet. You bring up Ayala, which seems on the surface to be a valid argument, but again, you probably weren't really watching boxing at the time, so it's ok. Ayala had fought at 118 and a catchweight ABOVE 122 when he fought Tapia twice. Talks had begun with Pacquiao's handler, Murad Muhammad in 2001, but instead of fighting Manny immediately after his first fight with Bones Adams, which was proposed, Ayala CHOSE to give Adams a rematch instead because he had only won by SD.

Then by the time Ayala was done, did he pursue the Pac fight? NO, he moved up to fight Erik Morales instead for more money and the WBC featherweight title, which again, if you ever followed boxing, would understand that Pac was still an unknown compared to Morales who had a huge following and was P4P by then.

Meanwhile, Manny stayed at 122 and tried to unify with Agapito Sanchez's WBO belt, arguably the #2 super bantam at the time. So fighting Ledwaba and Sanchez constituted fighting the best available. Larios was the other option and there is one fighter I can say no serious talks ever had been made. But they ended up fighting anyway albeit later.

Then for you to say he didn't fight the best at 126 or 130 because they were past prime, you're a moron. Barrera was the champ by virtue of beating Hamed, and he lost. He was the BEST FEATHERWEIGHT in the world at the time. Oh yeah, Barrera won 2 belts at 130 AFTER getting destroyed by Pac, so there goes your "washed up" argument. And unlike RJJ never fighting Daruisz Michalczewski, the only challenge left at 175 aside from Tarver, Pac fought Marquez and even gave him a second chance at 130. More than I can say for Roy. Then throw in HOF Morales, whom he split the first 2 with and fought the third (the third is the only fight I feel he was truly shot) because Morales had shown him the respect to give Manny a rematch after the first fight. He didn't fight the best at 126-130? STFU.

I don't think anyone on this board would argue that he fought the best at 135. I sure don't. But if you're gonna sit here and tell me he was unjustified in fighting Oscar De La Hoya for the biggest payday of his career while still having the burden of moving up TWELVE POUNDS and TWO WEIGHT CLASSES.

140 you at least acknowledged Pac fighting the best, but you only did that because you wanted to look half-******ed, and not expose the fully empty cavity you call a skull.

You won't give credit for 147 unless he beats Cotto, or whatever your nonsensical argument is.

Oh, and for the record, Cotto will be the 12th World Champ Pac has fought (he has beaten 10 so far).

Wow, that was easy. Now go formulate another stupid angle to attack Pacquiao's resume, because this one is officially dead. :hi:
Click to expand...

"I GOT TO SECOND THAT EMOTION.you have done your HOMEWORK."

---JRHJOKER

I am quoting his best line .

GalangK · Nov 3, 2009

tay sachs said: ↑

"I GOT TO SECOND THAT EMOTION.you have done your HOMEWORK."

---JRHJOKER

I am quoting his best line .
Click to expand...

I am always stunned by the the intellectual titans that grace the boards of ESB. Truly we are in the Ivory tower.

kalunya5964 · Nov 3, 2009

pugilistspecialist said: ↑

I took a look at Manny's March through the weight classes and every pound for pound or considered the best have their accomplishments and resume under scrutiny.
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112-Too young and green nowhere near his prime yet

122-This division was stacked with Talent....Paulie Ayala was the man and Ring champion, Bones Adams was still a top contender, Israel Vazquez and Oscar Larios had a great series and were longtime titlist at the weight. Pac-Man has wins over Lehlo Ledwaba a good fighter and titlist and a shot former bantamweight titlist Jorge Julio.......
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126-
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...Barrera underestimated him was past prime but got annihilated...Fought a draw with Marquez..fought average Battery....
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130-Fought a three fight series with all-time great Erik Morales...defeated a far past prime Barrera in a rematch that meant nothing IMO...It should be noted that Morales defeated him the first time around and had already been on the slide and had alot of wars...
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135-Fought David Diaz, a fighter who IMO lost to a well far gone Morales and got a gift, and was the least threatening fighterwith a belt here. This weight had Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor, even Julio Diaz would have been better....
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You made some research with less objectivity. A more objective review of Pac's career will show you that Pac had fought the best fighters in all the divisions he had campaigned into. At 112, he had Sasakul the lineal champ at that time. At 122, he had Ledwaba, a borderline p4p and IBF champ who had 6 successful defenses before Pac. Ledwaba emerged as the top superbantam at that time with the departure of Ayala and Tapia to 126. Larios and Vasquez became champions 2-3 year later when Pac had already moved to 126. At 126, He fought MAB and JMM, certainly the best feather weight at the time. At 130, Pac had Morales, Barrera and JMM and some good fighters but these three great Mexicans were the best 130 lbr then. At 135, he fought David Diaz, the WBC champ and #3 LW behind Juan Diaz and Casamayor. Pac chose David as Juan Diaz had a scheduled date with Campbell and Casamayor as we know was the same guy who "lost" to Santa Cruz who was dethroned by David by KO. At 140, He had Hatton who was the consensus best at the weight. At 147, he dominated ODLH but it was a no-bearing contest. He was slated however to fight Hatton who is the current best WW and win or lost, It has been proven already that Pac had fought the best fighters in all divisions he had fought.

Silvermags · Nov 3, 2009

blur said: ↑

total ownage:rofl
Click to expand...

totally agree + 1

cloud_cyc · Nov 3, 2009

pugilistspecialist said: ↑

112-is debatable here

Paulie Ayala was the best at 122, Ring Magazine Champion, 1999 fighter of the year and 2 wins over future HOFer Johnny Tapia im sure you know that so no....Ledwaba was a very good fighter top5 but he wasnt the best...At the time Vazquez and Larios were ranked higher...he didnt fight the best at the weight

He hasnt fought Cotto yet, he only fought one fight and that is DLH....further more Floyd Mayweather is the best at 147, he was the undefeated lineal champ and has comeback....Cotto and Mosley are the top 2 contenders outside Mayweather. For him to fight the best at 147 he has to beat Mayweather and no one else.
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...uhm, shane is

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Manny Pacquiao: Has he really moved up and fought the best as fans say?

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Manny Pacquiao: Has he really moved up and fought the best as fans say?

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