Manuel Ortiz Discussion Thread

SuzieQ49 · Jul 8, 2009

What a shame Pep vs Ortiz is not on film

teeto · Jul 8, 2009

Sweet Pea said: ↑

That fight was an inside masterclass by both men. Ortiz really seemed to be a versatile fighter. I got the impression he was merely obliging to fight that type of fight with Castillo, and that he would've been able to hold his own against a variety of different styles. He certainly showed that he had the stuff in the mid to close range game. Excellent use of feints, counters, bolo style uppercuts, and crafty in-fighting.

Ortiz vs Jofre, anyone?
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I was thinking about this, i think fighting Jofre at long range isn't the best of ideas, he has them long accurate shots that come from many angles, they'll mess you up. Maybe that's good for Manuel as he would probably want to go to work inside, but Jofre's class there also, very hard to say considering this is the first footage i've seen of Ortiz. I don't think the body shots and chipping away on the chin of Jofre would break him down eventually either, even considering how special an inside technician that Ortiz was. It will certainly be an action packed fight, goes the distance, i have no doubt about that at all.

Any thoughts yourself?

GPater11093 · Jul 10, 2009

bump this is intresting now will watch the yt vid later

anarci · Feb 6, 2010

Raging B(_)LL said: ↑

Here are a few stories about Manuel Ortiz told to me by boxing historian, writer, and expert on California boxing history Hap Navarro who was a good friend of Ortiz`s. I saved onto a wordpad document countless storys, thoughts and opinions which are a gold mine of boxing history on the West Coast he has shared with me over the years, below I will post the ones about Ortiz.

When Enrique Bolanos was on the rise, knocking every opponent out, he was matched against Ortiz at the Olympic. Manny kept it evenly close for about four rounds taking it easy on the younger fighter right up until Bolanos stung him with a pulverizing shot. Ortiz then suddenly went to work and the fight was over less than a minute later.

Another way the Olympic was unique was that on fight nights there was a popcorn peddler stationed at the corner of 18th and Grand, near one of the ticket windows, with a steam-driven whistle on his cart that told you the peanuts and popcorn were hotly fresh. I never could resist that guy even as a grown man, although I preferred to hit the beer bars inside as I grew older. Speedy Dado hawking his Knockouts was never far from that corner popcorn cart.

One fight night in the 1950s Manuel Ortiz and I were talking at one of the concession stands in the back of the arena when Art Aragon passed by carrying two cups of beer. He nodded to us, and bumped into Manuel slightly, almost spillng his beer on him. Ortiz was furious for a few seconds and yelled at Art to come back, but Aragon kept right on going, leaving Manuel in a huff for me to quiet down. Before continuing our conversation, Manuel mumbled "Golden Boy....hah!"

Manuel Ortiz was a bit of a riddle. He took his boxing career seriously only on a few occasions. When he did he was undoubtedly one of the best lighter men of all time. A master boxer who could lure an opponent into fierce exchanges which he usually won. The worst I ever saw him was in an Olympic match with Lauro Salas, terribly out of shape.

When Manny pealed off his robe the audience actually gasped at the layers of fat around his midsection. He weighed just under 135 pounds for that one and paid the price for his misstep.
Salas pounded him easily and repeatedly until Manny had to take a voluntary knock down to stop the onslaught. He fought back on guts alone and survived without getting floored again but lost a lopsided duke.

I remember that tears streamed down his cheeks as he realized how futile his efforts were against a well conditioned foe like Lauro. It was a sight, Rick, so much so that some of us at ringside kept pleading with Lauro to let up on Manny, whom he could never kayo. In a subsequent rematch, Lauro got his come-uppance and lost the duke.

Here is a reply from Hap about the Ortiz/Pep fight when I asked him if he had any details about that fight besides what I knew about it. I had mentioned to him how here you had two of the all-time greats of their divisions, in fact each was arguably the best his division produced.

Yet, news accounts that I've read say Pep won 8 of ten rounds, and Ortiz was never in the fight.The fight, as I said, took place in Braves Stadium in Boston, so my guess is you didn't see it. But did you ever hear any scuttlebutt to explain Ortiz' rather dismal performance - or was it just a case of Pep being that great?

His reply:

I have no idea, nor did I ever approach Manuel on the Pep fight in Boston. Manuel was enigmatic to the highest degree, capable of beating lightweights one night, an unwilling pawn in the next one.

When he chose to be the real deal, he would be magnificent and when he did so, the patented, original ring style was so impressive it left us all in awe of the wonder of this fighter.

I will always believe that greatness is often in the eyes of the beholder, especially when it is made so patent as Ortiz was capable of doing. He was one of those individuals who took his natural fighting gifts for granted, thinking the profession was all a game to be enjoyed as much as any other game. Of course, we as fans, know that is not true. Boxing is fighting for a prixe and fame is fleeting in the ring. I don't think Manuel ever saw it that way, sadly.

Here is another reply from Hap when I had asked him about a particular move that Ortiz kept doing throughout his 3rd bout vs Luis Castillo (this fight is on film). I had remarked to him how I noticed Ortiz do something that I've never seen another fighter do as smoothly or with as much success.

Several times, Ortiz would lean forward slightly at the waist and drop his hands to about chest level as if daring the other fellow to hit him. Then, when the guy tried, Ortiz would lay some absolutely beautiful counters on him. Was that his regular modus operandi or did he do it only in that one fight?

Watching that tape of him was a real pleasure btw. He was an artist in the ring and I now know why you think so highly of him now that I`ve finally seen him in action for myself.

His reply:

That little maneuver of Manuel's was a part of his feinting technique, which I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years. Manuel used his head to feint successfully, causing his opponent to commit himself and counterpunching him sillly. He was an expert at the ploy; maybe the best in my time.
His hands down technique was also meant to lure an opponent into a solid exchange he felt he could easily win. Manuel fought Castillo, his good friend, by the way, about three times. Luis was a good puncher who was billed in Mexico as "The Pocket Battleship".
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:good:good Excellent info Raging bull! Sounds like you are from the LA area do you know Johnny"flash"ORtiz? He is a well known historian,former gym owner and Radio show host his brother (Phil Ortiz) fought Manny. I havent talked to him in a while(old friend of mine), But i remember him telling me a story about Manny Ortiz being at a bar and some sailors were harassing him, since he was dressed as a zoot suitor(this is back during the Zoot suit riots in La during the war) Well i dont remember the details but it was said that Manny put a real beating on two of the sailors and the 3rd ran off after Seeing what Manny did to his buddies
Manny is arguably the greatest Mexican American fighter ever, and imo the best bantam ever. IVe never seen clips on him but would love too i guess my opinion is based on old timers that ive known like Johnny Ortiz and late legendary trainer Canto Robledo whose brother Joe also fought Manny twice.(whose opinions i highly respect) who insist he was better than Jofre,Olivares,Zarate and all the other great bantams.

My2Sense · Feb 6, 2010

Here's some other brief clips of Ortiz. They show what a ferocious attacker and great combination puncher he was.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=51557

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=26663

anarci · Feb 6, 2010

My2Sense said: ↑

Here's some other brief clips of Ortiz. They show what a ferocious attacker and great combination puncher he was.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=51557

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=26663
Click to expand...

Good Stuff thanks :good

anarci · Feb 6, 2010

Anyone else have more footage of Manuiel Ortiz?

AlFrancis · Feb 6, 2010

anarci said: ↑

Anyone else have more footage of Manuiel Ortiz?
Click to expand...

Have you looked at page 7 on this thread?
Don't know if you've seen this

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHhKoVElk8I[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCzLjuFDDDw&feature=related[/ame]

GPater11093 · Feb 7, 2010

I love Ortiz's inside game. For such a tall lad he was a great inside fighter.

WhataRock · Feb 7, 2010

I wouldnt say 5'4'' is particularly tall for a bantam Greg...Ortiz strikes me as stocky for the weight.

GPater11093 · Feb 7, 2010

WhataRock said: ↑

I wouldnt say 5'4'' is particularly tall for a bantam Greg...Ortiz strikes me as stocky for the weight.
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Yeh sorry what was I thinking. Its that fight with Castillo when he towers over him that made me think he was tall.

WhataRock · Feb 7, 2010

I dont blame ya mate...thats certainly what it looks like. Castillo was knee high to a grasshopper though.

GPater11093 · Feb 7, 2010

WhataRock said: ↑

I dont blame ya mate...thats certainly what it looks like. Castillo was knee high to a grasshopper though.
Click to expand...

Yeh, and it is all I have seen of Ortiz (except the Toweel fight Highlights).. Castillo was tiny though. Still Ortiz did well on the inside being the taller man.

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