Marcel Cerdan and His Historical Placement

nah, the size and youth advantages of those who beat robinson wouldn't apply to cerdan, i don't think he was the greatest trainer either, but i could be wrong about that. vs robinson he would be outsped, outpunched, and generally outclassed imo.

when i look at great fighters, spending most of their career and prime cashing in on home town fame and beating the same no name domestic level guys 2 or 3 times just doesn't cut it.

 

I think you mean visionary.

 

Is that how you spell it?

 

Usually just an I followed by a it. I'll be here all week...

 

Pretty good thread ..

 

Allan Rosenfeld, who was a boxing writer and authored the book on Charley Burley, was ringside for the fight and told me himself that LaMotta beat the **** out of Cerdan before any injury.

Charles Cain, writing for the AP wrote: "The reformed Bronx "bad boy" felt he could have taken Cerdan anyway regardless of the injury and the way Jake started out, most of the crowd agreed with him." Cain stated that Cerdan took a terrific beating in the fight. He also wrote that: LaMotta "took command from the opening bell and even in the first round when Cerdan's hands were okay, jake won the round on the cards of the three ring officials.

Al Abrams writing for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette stated that LaMotta won the first round big.

Wilfred Smith of the Chicago Tribune wrote: "After the first round, in which LaMotta nearly had Cerdan out on his feet, the challenger was content to let a multitude of blows wear down the champion."
Tommy Holmes writing for the Brooklyn Daily Eagle wrote: "While Cerdan's injury will be advanced as an alibi and probably did result in his failure to go the 15 round limit LaMotta was the boss of the brawl from the start.

James P Dawson of the New York Times stated: "It was a thorough, decisive battle, too, from the outset. In the first round LaMotta almost knocked out his rival. A long left hook to the jaw drove Cerdan against the ropes midway through the session, the champions knees buckling under him. So furious was Lamotta in his bid for victory that he wrestled Cerdan across the ring, trying to shake off the desperately holding defending champion."

Jack Cuddy writing for the UPI stated: "In the first round while Cerdan was absorbing a terrific battering, LaMotta half threw him to the canvas."

In his round by round of the fight he says in part: "There was a cut over Cerdan's right eye from a LaMotta hook. Jake continued to swarm to the attack and shoved off Cerdan at close quarters. LaMotta struck two jabs at Cerdan's nose without return. And Jake sent Cerdan staggering to the ropes with a flurry of rights and lefts. Cerdan went down but the referee ruled he had been thrown down and there was no count. He was up immediately but was hanging on. "

Indeed in the long version of the film you can see LaMotta battering Cerdan around the ring and Cerdan trying to hold on for dear life. LaMotta wobbles Cerdan and an off balance Marcel stumbles into LaMotta trying to clinch. LaMotta, in the midst of flurrying shrugs Cerdan off and he falls to the canvas. This was at the end of the round so if you want to blame LaMotta then its pretty hard to explain Cerdan getting his ass royally kicked prior to that.

The bottom line is that both guys had severe injuries, LaMotta a broken hand and Cerdan an injured shoulder. One of those guys toughed it out and won. Simple as that.

Said by who? Marcel Cerdan in his dressing room after the fight was quoted as saying that he hurt it throwing his first left hook. He also refused to substantiate his managers, who made excuse after excuse for him, claim that he injured it when he went down.

Cain stated that every round followed the same pattern as the first (which was wide for LaMotta).

Abrams gave Cerdan only two rounds.

James P Dawson of the New York times said that Cerdan was "punched into oblivion cleanly and decisively through seven of the nine rounds." He stated that Cerdan was overmatched from the start against a bigger, stronger, and more savage foe.

The referee (who was no fan of LaMotta btw) gave cerdan only 1 round.

Cerdan was in such bad shape in the seventh and eighth rounds that he went to the wrong corner. Every article I can find states a different story about the injury. Most state that Cerdan injured his shoulder in the first and that finally stopped using it in the fourth. Some mention that he didnt injure it until second and othersthat Johnny Weber, the referee, noticed Cerdan moan after missing a left hook in the second. Some even call into the question the extent of the injury noting that the ringside physician was adamant that he could find no injury and that he recommended the fight continue but the corner stopped it. It was also noted that in order for LaMotta to get a title shot cerdan had forced LaMotta to sign an agreement that meant LaMotta's purse would go into escrow until after LaMotta fought a rematch with Cerdan in the event that Cerdan lost the title. Obviously Cerdan A. Wasnt as confident of beating LaMotta as some of you are and B. maybe felt he could get a redo when things started going bad for him. Dawson advised Cerdan to forget about any rematch with LaMotta as he was flirting with disaster.

Thats one opinion. Others stated that LaMotta simply began wading through Cerdan's punches when he realized that Cerdan couldnt hurt him. Some people have said: "Oh cerdan couldnt use his best punch." Pffff As if Cerdan was ever going to knock Lamotta out. He wasnt a huge puncher to begin with. He was a natural WW and his entire game was based around swarming and staying on top of his man. Against a big strong guy like LaMotta do you think this is going to be decided on punching power? No.

The vast majority of bouts Cerdan had were against total no names. Whereas Georgie Abrams had fought the cream of the middleweight division time and again. Nevermind that he was just getting his legs back from under him after being out during the war. There is no doubt that Abrams was past his best when he fought Cerdan. Chris Dundee always said that Abrams could never regain the form he had lost during the war. Period. Thats proven by his less than stellar record during that period. It didnt take a Ray Robinson to fight on even terms with Abrams at this point.

Also, how do you figure the Robinson fight was a career best performance for Abrams?? Abrams had nearly 12 pounds on Robinson, was suspended for 30 days after this fight for failing to make the contracted weight, and won at most four rounds. The reason the fight was so close, and the decision booed by some in the audience was because the fight was considered very dull and Robinson had two rounds that he won taken away due to low blows. Had those rounds not been taken away the decision would have been fairly wide. Even so his lead was enough to take the decision. One writer said Ray fought just as hard as he had to to win and no more. Another was mystified that some thought the fight close. He had Robinson a clear winner even with the deductions and stated that while Robinson strayed low a couple of times the audience and referee were influenced by Abrams handlers crying foul almost before the fight started and kept it up loud and long. Another paper said the claims of fouling were so overblown that at one point Abrams handlers cried foul while Robinson was still winding up the punch, before he even let it go. Thats hardly a loss to be trumpeting as some guys career best performance.

Another point that is never mentioned when discussing supposed handicaps is that this fight was postponed one day due to rain. LaMotta, the naturally bigger guy, weighed in on the original date and technically, according to the rules in Detroit, did not have to weigh in again on the second day but Cerdan demanded that LaMotta stay at that low weight for another 24 hours. LaMotta relented to get the title shot. So while Cerdan may have been a different fighter without his shoulder injury LaMotta likely would have been a different fighter without a broken hand and without having to maintain weight for such an abnormally long period of time. Shoulda coulda woulda.

 

edit

 

Many fine professional athletes had their careers interrupted due to their service in the U.S. Armed Forces during World War II. Some did not fully regain their form after resuming their careers. Others established themselves in their sports at a relatively late age due to their careers being interrupted because of their service during the war. Yet another group of professional athletes did very well during their careers before going into the service and after returning to civilian life, but missed some important years as an athlete due to being in the service.

For his book, The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill James wrote an article about top baseball players who may have been on track to be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame if their careers hadn't been interrupted due to their service in the U.S. Armed Forces during World War II. James pointed out that the number of Baseball Hall of Fame players born from 1910 to 1929 was relatively low. He compiled the following chart of the number of Hall of Fame players born during each decade:

1890-1899= 26 players
1900-1909= 32 players
1910-1919= 15 players
1920-1929= 17 players
1930-1939= 22 players so far

Note- The Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract was copyrighted in 2001.

James listed the following potential Hall of Fame players who had their careers interrupted due to their service during World War II: 1. Cecil Travis 2. Mickey Vernon 3. Dom DiMaggio 4. Johnny Pesky 5. D*ck Wakefield 6. Joe Gordon
(Note- Gordon was later inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame) 7. Tommy Henrich 8. Alvin Dark 9. Sam Chapman 10. Buddy Lewis 11. Hank Sauer
12. Sid Gordon 13. Virgil Trucks 14. Hank Bauer 15. Barney McCosky
16. Wally Judnich 17. Ferris Fain 18. Eddie Robinson
Some of James' selected players were speculative or long shots, but one has to think that a number of them would have had Baseball Hall of Fame careers with a little bit more luck.

Travis, Wakefield, Chapman, Lewis, Judnich and McCosky didn't completely regain their form after the war. Gordon may have not completely regained his form, but that is a speculative judgement because he still was a terrific player after the war. Vernon, Henrich and Pesky were terrific major league players before joining the service and after returning from the war, but their Hall of Fame credentials may have taken a big hit because they missed some seasons during their prime years due to their wartime service. After their service during the war, DiMaggio, Dark, Sauer, Gordon, Fain, Trucks, Bauer and Robinson went on to have fine major league careers, but their Hall of Fame credentials may have taken a big hit because they established themselves as top major league players at a relatively late age after their service during the war.

- Chuck Johnston

Note- I should have started a new thread with this post, but I wrote it in response to the assertion that George Abrams didn't completely regain his form when he resumed his boxing career after serving in the U.S. Armed Forces during World War II. Abrams' failure along such lines was quite common in sports after the war.

 

Over the years I have had the chance the discuss Marcel Cerdan with several people who actually followed his career and saw him fight - in Europe, Africa and in America - and they all rated him extremely highly, and believed his progress had been greatly stalled by the war too, and that he was some way past his prime by the time he fought for the title.


People can argue all they want about whether he could beat a prime Zale or whether he could have beat LaMotta.
To me, it's immaterial. They were all great fighters.

 

Anytime Cerdan gets brought up i can't help but feel bad for Marcel Thil. He deserves to be regarded as highly as many seem to hold Cerdan.

I do think Cerdan was a great fighter his career timing just didn't really allow him to prove it also the division had really thinned out post WWII from what it had been for more than a decade. I don't think his accomplishments match up with how most rate him but overall it's good that's he's as well remembered as he is.

Putting him in the top 10 would be craziness.

 

Thil is the greatest French middleweight.

Criqui the greatest French P4Per.

Not Carpentier and not Cerdan.

 

Exactly.

Thil, who trained Cerdan on occasion, would have broken Cerdan in half.

 

Agree with Criqui as the overall greatest Frenchman?

 

I dont know. Id have to think about it. Thil has a lot more marquee wins both domestic and on the world stage. Id have to think about some of the other frenchmen as well. I certainly think that for years Carpentier and Cerdan have gotten far more credit than they deserve as fighters. Carpentier at least had a massive impact on the popularity of the sport in Europe so holding him in regard is legitimate there but Cerdan was a guy who spent the vast majority of his career fighting nobodies, he never faced even the best French MWs much less the best MWs in the world to earn his shot. Then he lost his title in his first defense to a guy he had leap frogged to get the shot. Could history be different IF Marcel Cerdan started fighting big names earlier and IF he had gotten a title shot younger and IF he hadnt injured his shoulder and IF he hadnt died... There are so many IFs there its pretty ridiculous to believe an unproven guy like Cerdan could navigate all of them successfully. The thing about Cerdan is that people always say "he looks great on film." and "People who saw him in France and Africa said he was amazing." and "He only lost a few times in nearly 100 fights." BUT all of those things hinge on his level of opposition. He was fighting a ton of mediocre fighters at best so he damn well should have looked good against them and his record should be largely intact against them and its those fights we have of him on film. When he stepped up his competition he wasnt nearly as impressive and he always had an excuse for it. Against Dellanoit he was sick. Against Abrams he had a shoulder injury. Against Holman Williams it was a bad hand. Against Anton Raadik it was the flu. Against Jake LaMotta it was his shoulder. Those are the best guys he faced, for one reason or another he looked vulnerable in every fight and every time out he had an excuse. Call me cynical but I tend believe if a guy looks fantastic against ****ty competition and not against good competition it has more to do with his level of competition than with any one of the numerous excuses he can come up with.

 

K2, here is the article by Red Smith entitled, 'Jake beats a fighting cripple'. I guess there were different views on how this fight unfolded. Perhaps since this article came out 3 days after the fight and with a broader understanding of the extent of Cerdan's injury by this time, views may have differed.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...0,4027477&dq=jake+lamotta+marcel+cerdan&hl=en

Also, I disagree with your assessment about the Robinson fight. This was Abrams greatest fight. It was not dull, it was written up as a brawl. Yes, Abrams had 12 pounds on Sugar, who was welterweight champ at the time, but Sugar fought big middles all the time, such as Jake, Jose Basora and Artie Levine with the utmost success. Moreover they all had a better punch and were stronger than Georgie, who stopped about 9 guys in 60 fights, so the 12 pounds wasn't relevant. You said Ray fought just as hard as he had to to win. Who told you that? Ray was cut over both eyes so severely that his tragic defense against Jimmy Doyle had to be postponed. You said some writer was mystified why they booed the decision because he didn't think it was close. Well, the writers from both the AP and UP covering the bout both scored the fight for Abrams. Again, this was Georgie's greatest fight against one of the PFP greatest.