Marcel Cerdan or Marcel Thil?

and of course a learned fellow such as yourself will know he got that title from a near end of career zale...who had previously beaten him.

 

That depends on how highly you rate Graziano. I dont. He was an overrated, overprotected MW who feasted on old WWs and LWs. We ONLY remember him because of his fights with Zale and those were so memorable because Zale was far enough past his prime to allow Graziano to be competetive.

 

Whence the sarcasm, mo bhucaill ?

Yeah, I've seen SOMEBODY UP THERE LIKES ME and was familiar with the epic series.

Fact is, Cerdan was within a couple of years of Zale's age, had been fighting for as long, and had fought quite a few more times.

And Zale was coming off an epic win .


Maybe he grew old overnight ?

You could make just as solid a case that Liston was shot when Clay TKO'd him in 6.

Probably a better case, as Liston had been inactive for longer.

 

I wasn't being sarcastic. ...or didn't mean to be anyway

 

Well it sure as f*ck looked like it.

Where have I claimed to be so learned ?




Anyway, my theory is that being a Connaught man, you hold a long grudge, and you're still pi*ssed off that Cuchulain kicked the cac out of Meadhbh's armies during the Táin. :fire



( Just kidding )

 

Cerdan may have be nearly the same age as Zale but he hadnt fought anywhere near the level of competition over that duration as Zale had. Zale had a lot more mileage on his ticker.

 

Cerdan had had a lot more fights, and according to the stats, boxed 750 rounds, to Zale's 500.

This in itself doesn't tell the whole story as Zale's competition was probably at a higher level and his series with the dude you maligned, Graziono, probably put a lot of 'mileage on his ticker.'

But we know little or nothing of how rough or gentle Cerdan's many opponents in French Africa might have been, so I think it's fair to say that they were at roughly similar stages in their careers.

The Pac that faces Floyd in May would probably get killed by the Pac that eviscerated Cotto, but the Floyd that beat Corrales was a fair bit sharper that current Floyd. So it (approximately) evens out.

My original point, other than to strike a blow for Edith, was that it was an exaggeration to declare Zale shot.

My own (no doubt minority) opinion, is that prime for prime, Cerdain would have prevailed over Zale.

And Graziano.

And LaMotta.

Only guy from that period I would lay money on to take him would have been SRR.

And even there, in a six fight series, I think Marcel would have done better than Jake did.

 

How many of Cerdans opponents in Europe OR Africa became world class fighters. We dont know about them because North Africa was decades away from developing world class boxing on a semi regular basis. Likewise Cerdans opponents in Europe (that werent imported from the USA) were club fighters at best and we know this because we have several of the best ones he foughts fights. Spin it how you want but there is no denying that Zale fought much stiffer competition, in tougher fighters, over a longer period. Thats just not even a debateable point. As Hopkins used to say Cerdan was essentially sitting on the shelf like grandmas peaches while Zale was fighting wars.

 

You wasted a fair amount of time arguing a point that i had already conceded...

"...as Zale's competition was probably at a higher level ..."



Again, my main points were:

Zale was not shot.

Cerdain was not prime.

Neither of these points are seriously debatable.



My last point , that Cerdan was better than any version of Zale, Graziano or La Motta , could well be debated, even ridiculed. It's just a somewhat quirky opinion.

The two earlier points are on reasonably solid ground.










* No. their careers were about the same length.

 

Absolutely!:good

 

Zale lost 4 years to the War he was not the same fighter when he came back .

 

Yes I think they are. One difference between Cerdan and Thil is Thil lost 23 times and drew 14 times. Some of the fighters Thill lost or drew were journeymen and no-names. What is Thil's best win?

When Cerdan lost ( just 4 times in 115 fights ), it was DQ 2x, or injury from a foul. Only one loss was " clean ", and he avenged it.

Thil didn't even rank in the top 30 of the IBRO historian poll at middle weight. Cerdan ranked 7th.

 

Im not talking about wins or losses. Im talking about who I rank higher at MW, as in who I think was better at his best. Thats clearly Thil for me. I would pick Thil to make Cerdan quit and I dont even think it would be competetive, thats how overblown the Cerdan legend is. Thil was very strong (and BTW trained Cerdan) and would just be all over Cerdan. I dont see Cerdan dealing with that and frankly Cerdan's best weight may not have even been MW, whereas Thil was a natural MW and very strong there too.

How many IBRO historians have really studied Thil? I doubt many if any have. Cerdan has always been more accessible in the states than Thil has, even in their own time.

 

This is true, but you'd have to at least figure that Cerdan would have been good enough to give a prime Zale one hell of a war too !

 

Klompton,

I can't say for sure how many IBRO members studied Thil, but I was part of their poll, and in on many email discussions when it came time to rank middles.

Most historians know who Thil was, and those who voted ( well over 30 members ) felt he didn't rate in the top 30. Those who just missed the cut had votes in the top 20. Thil wasn't listed. So essentially no one saw him as a top 20 guy. Cerdan was highly rated.


IBRO Middleweight Poll:

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Stanley Ketchel
Mickey Walker
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Marcel Cerdan
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jake LaMotta
Charley Burley
Tony Zale
Tiger Flowers
Bernard Hopkins
Tommy Ryan
Roy Jones Jr.
Di@k Tiger
Mike Gibbons
Freddie Steele
Kid McCoy
Gene Fullmer

Just missing the cut: Sugar Ray Leonard, Les Darcy, Sam Langford, Holman Williams, Billy Papke, Emile Griffith, Frank Klaus, Joey Giardello, Nonpareil Jack Dempsey and Ezzard Charles.

^^^ I think these rankings are solid. Roy Jones to me is under rated.

Did Any historian rank Marcel Thil highly? I checked. Only Herb Goldman ranked him, and it was #15 at middle weight. That's it and I have 50 or so lists archived, many of them are from historians that have passed away 50 years ago.

Having said that, why do you think Thil ws great? There are a few films on him and I see a grinder type. Thil also lost often to journeyman types, and was never a lineal champion.