Marciano Contemplated Coming Back For Sonny.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rainer, May 13, 2019.



  1. JC40

    JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 Full Member

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    Hi Choc, it seems your reading comprehension is at a primary school - elementary school level. Either that or you are taking the ****, mate ;)

    You dont seem to actually know what a swarmer is judging by that hilarious if irrelevant list. Tim Witherspoon ? Thomas Adamek ? Holyfield ? Wilder ? I don't think there was actually one on the whole list except for Joe Frazier and Turnbow and Matthis were both notoriously feather fisted.

    What happened to the " of similar standing " bit of my statement ? Judging by that list you seem to have ignored it completely.

    Barely any if none at all of the fighters on your list who lost to the smaller heavyweight could hardly be called " punchers ".

    In typical fashion you seem to have completely ignored 99% of what I typed and quoted the one statement I made that you thought you could discredit by typing a googled bunch of nonsense in what was an hilarious if obvious use of the old " straw man " attack combined with a small serving of red herring.

    Golden Feather rebutted it beautifully.

    Thanks for the laugh Choc n keep up the good work. You have a real future in comedy. It will be entertaining to read your next piece of spin and to see what other logical fallacies you pull out of your magic hat.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  2. JC40

    JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 Full Member

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    No mate no point has been proved at all. That is all in your mind.

    You was the one who quoted MY question regarding swarmers yet now you once again resort to logical fallacy with this quote " The use of these strict swarmer, Boxer, slugger descriptions are far too vague. Everyone has a different interpretation. I have never liked the use of them. Whatever, none of the smaller fighters are defensive men are they? ".

    Nobody on your list satisfied the criteria I asked for in my question.

    Cheers.
     
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  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So Frazier and Rocky weren't both come forward fighters that were smaller than Foreman? It certainly holds up on that rudimentary level ;)
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Nothing would satisfy you until I can produce the exact thing in your head. You are rather hard to please aren't you?

    At the end of the day, I have never pretended the 8 years retired Rocky deserved to be in a ring with Liston. Merely that he stands an excellent chance only in his prime.

    For those of you that insist Rocky would Always be an easy victim for Sonny please get back to me when you have considered these points.

    1. Is it untrue that Rocky beat a #1 contender who was not only one inch taller and exactly the same weight as Sonny Liston but 8-0 in the last 12 months?

    2. Is it untrue that Sonny got his jaw broken by a guy lighter than Marciano?

    3. Is it untrue Sonny practically quit in half of his title fights against a lighter puncher than Marciano?

    4. Did any reigning HW champion ever get stopped on a cut?

    5. Is it untrue Rocky beat or knocked out all the men he hit?

    6. Is it untrue even Westphal landed blows on Sonny?

    7. Was Sonny Liston ever rated above Rocky Marciano on any published ATG top ten list BEFORE the internet generation?

    8. Were the two men who knocked out Liston greater punchers at world level than Marciano?

    9. Was Marciano ever knocked out?

    Cheers
     
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  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Come on Bummy - Marshall was Listons 8th pro fight. Liston broken jaw and all went the 8 and lost a split decision. He belted Marshall twice within 6 months of that. Rocky in his 8th fight fought a guy 1-4-0 and then a debutant.

    People try to make a big thing out of this whole Marshall thing and there's just no substance there whatsoever.
     
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  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Theres more substance in that than there is with the Foreman Frazier comparison.
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Um no. you are very definitely different, or trolling.
     
  8. Rainer

    Rainer Member Full Member

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    Thanks for confirming my first impression of you,it will save me a lot of time in the future.
     
  9. Rainer

    Rainer Member Full Member

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    Many, many experienced boxing people use Foreman and Frazier as the nearest facisimiles of Liston and Marciano,they are legitimate comparisons imo .
    Saying a novice Liston got his jaw broke and then lost a split decision against a man he subsequently thrashed twice is meant to demonstrate exactly what? Please tell us what it proves as regards a Liston v Marciano match up?
     
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  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    So, Liston getting his Jaw broken and losing to a 180 pounder in actual real life has less value than making a comparison with two other individuals and deciding on the outcome of a fantasy because of it?

    One thing happened. The other is fantasy. A hasty generalisation.

    I’m not saying there’s much value. Just more value.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  11. JC40

    JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 Full Member

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    Google the red herring logical fallacy, the straw man logical fallacy, the false dichotomy logical fallacy, the circular argument fallacy & the Tu Quoque fallacy, Choc. You might find knowing about them helpful as far as conducting yourself rationally in a debate situation

    Cheers.
     
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  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is true, though hardly a unanimous opinion among boxing people. Don Turner, Lou Duva and Tommy Gallagher certainly qualify as boxing people who do not subscribe to that comparison.
     
  13. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    This list again. Ok.

    1. Is it untrue that Rocky beat a #1 contender who was not only one inch taller and exactly the same weight as Sonny Liston but 8-0 in the last 12 months?

    Marciano beat the plodding, overweight 37 year old Joe Louis who never boxed again. The fact that Louis remained #1 contender even after being well beaten by Ezzard Charles just shows the magic of his name and the weakness of the heavyweight division in the early 50s.

    2. Is it untrue that Sonny got his jaw broken by a guy lighter than Marciano?

    Which means what? That Liston had an unusually breakable jaw? That it could be expected to break every time he fought someone heavier than Marty Marshall? And yet it didn't.

    3. Is it untrue Sonny practically quit in half of his title fights against a lighter puncher than Marciano?

    Liston quit once in his career against Muhammad Ali, who was about as different a fighter from Marciano as the mind can conceive. Punching power had nothing to do with it, so the implication that if he quit against Ali then he would also quit against Marciano is senseless.

    4. Did any reigning HW champion ever get stopped on a cut?

    And because something hasn't happened, that means it never could happen? In any case, who's predicting that Liston would win on cuts?

    5. Is it untrue Rocky beat or knocked out all the men he hit?

    As did Joe Clegg. Being unbeaten doesn't make a man invincible.

    6. Is it untrue even Westphal landed blows on Sonny?

    Westphal landed a couple of ineffectual dabs before being flattened inside 2 minutes of the first round. Using this to criticise Liston is truly bizarre.

    7. Was Sonny Liston ever rated above Rocky Marciano on any published ATG top ten list BEFORE the internet generation?

    The "internet generation" have ready access to a vast archive of fight films, complete records and contemporary news reports. Liston's reputation has risen because people have the information to make a proper assessment.

    8. Were the two men who knocked out Liston greater punchers at world level than Marciano?

    With ko wins over Oscar Bonavena and George Foreman, Muhammad Ali is actually a far more proven world class puncher than Marciano. Who did Marciano knock out who was never stopped by anyone else?

    9. Was Marciano ever knocked out?

    That's just (5) again.
     
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Thank you for at least addressing these points. I use them merely to demonstrate that it is not a clear cut thing that Rocky is unanimously fated as an easy victim in his prime against Sonny.


    This does not make it untrue that Louis was the favourite and number one contender or one inch taller and exactly the same weight as Liston. It’s true that he beat contenders to earn this ranking.

    No I don’t believe that. I’m simply asking is it untrue? If it never happened I am certain that nobody could believe Liston might lose against a 180lb man.

    It is quite legitimate to state Sonny was unreliable in difficult title assignments. There is no evidence that Rocky is guaranteed to provide the simplest, easiest nights work of Listons life.

    Absolutely. Being unbeaten doesn't make a man invincible. But it certainly should make it more difficult to make a case against him to become some easy knockout victim.

    It was not a criticism to say Westphal landed blows. Just factual.

    Liston's reputation has risen because people have the information to make a proper assessment above boxing people who knew both men? Is there evidence of this?

    This would be a minority opinion.
     
  15. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Active Member Full Member

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    Like I give a $hit. You just can't admit that your boy the Rock never beat anobody who was old and washed up. Blown up lightheavyweights like Charles who split his nose in half, and Moore put him on his ass.
    Now lets forget about Lewis, the Klitschko's and other giants of today's era. Let's say Rocky fights prime 190lb versions of Qawi and Holyfield. He loses. Let's throw in a prime Jerry Quarry, it's a 50/50 fight. Put him in with a prime 205 lb Frazier, he loses. Also for arguments sake we'll put him in against 2 big guys that can punch Gerry Cooney, and Corrie Sanders. He gets knocked out by both. End of story and of the Rocky myth. Larry Holmes summed it up best by saying "Rocky couldn't carry my jockstrap!" Also for further proof go on YouTube, there's a Chuck Zito video, and he says what all intelligent people who follow boxing know. Rocky never beat any name opponent who wasn't already way past it. And that's from a fellow Italian-American
     

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