Marciano deserves a lot of respect

You think Hearns was bigger than Hagler?
Okay......

 

I don't care what Charles says, one pound didn't make him underperform against Bivins lol. Absurd claim. Less valid than Hayes broken toe.

So do you think MW Hagler would walk down cruiser Hearns?

Hagler would be outweighed by 30 pounds or so, but that "natural size" you are talking about should help him out?

 

How many titles did Hagler win at LHW and Cruiser?

Oh...unlike the 6'1" 80" wingspan Hearns, Hagler was too small to fight that high up, despite that "natural size"

It seems to me.. .. bigger=turned pro at a higher weight. Yeah, not a logical deduction.

You are aware that bigger does not equate to being stronger or more durable? Size isn't subjective. Is that what we've come to? Lol

Hagler was stronger and more durable than Hearns at MW, but he wasn't bigger. That's just factually wrong.

[url]https://images.app.goo.gl/RtgdrJZfPqj4kNyV6[/url]

 

Yes, I do. That is exactly what I think.

Even in a scenario where Hagler was for some reason fighting a Hearns who's gained 30lbs via aging, getting fatter and adding muscle to his frame, I would still quite happily take Hagler to walk Hearns down and stop him.

And anyway, that's a pointless discussion becauss it didn't happen. What did happen, was Hearns moved up and fought Hagler while both weighing just below 160. Hearns wasn't 30lbs heavier than Hagler, he was the same weight. In the ring, it was clear who was bigger and it wasn't Hearns. Why? Because one was a natural welter/light-welter, whereas one was a natural middleweight. The same way Charles was a natural light heavyweight, whereas Marciano was naturally a solid, 185lb+ heavyweight. And it isn't like Charles comfortably gained weight and filled out into heavyweight. He didn't like the extra weight because it made him slower, with less power, he also had a lot more fat on him than Rocky did.

 

Idk why people insist Archie Moore was a more natural LHW. He was a natural HW who had to cut heavily to be a LHW. Not only that it’s certainly arguable he had a better career at HW then any other weight. With wins over Bivins x4 Nino x2 Baker, Lavorante, Cestac, Slade, Davidson etc. not to mention the great Harold Johnson and Satterfield who were excellent on the Hw tanks (but beaten at LHW).

 

Yeah, you're right. It isn't.

What's happening here is that you're flat out wrong. If plain ****ing daft to say Hearns is bigger than Hagler, or Charles and Moore were the same size as Marciano.

 

You don't believe size is subjective but you are arguing against factual measurements as an indication of size. Lol

I guess if you really hate Marciano and are willing to argue against him for years, I should expect such baffling logic gymnastics.

In this crazy world "Height, weight, reach...." are not measurements of size. What weight you weighed when you turned pro in your early 20s will be your forever "size."

Your present weight don't matter in boxing. You will always be the same size you turned pro at. "naturally".

I'm gonna have to bail on this gem.

 

What do you expect. There are Olympic level logic gymnastics being employed here.

They seem to think there is a "forever size" or "natural size" fighters assume when they turn pro which overrules present weight, height, and reach.

Superior Power and Durability=Bigger...I'm out. Good luck.

 

Yeah, coz that's what I said.

Idiot.

 

It is your entire argument.

Too bad Virgil Hill's "natural size" didn't help him overcome Hearn's height, giant reach, and punching power advantage.

Size in boxing=Height, Weight, Reach. End of discussion.

Muscle mass and Fat don't seem to indicate anything predictive in boxing performance. Too many variables. And certainly not size. Roy Jones had more lean muscle than the chubby John Ruiz...that don't make him bigger.

Durability and power at a given weight are a different factor.

 

Rocky Marciano liked winning and he was good at it

 

Do you want a cookie or something? You haven’t shown that you have the faintest idea about barbell training or its purpose in sports. So far you’ve claimed that Marciano wouldn’t be able to weigh more than 185 while being lean. That’s completely false and I’ve seen tons and tons of people do it. You need to go tell Mark Rippetoe he’s hallucinating because he claims that a grown man weighs 200 lbs and that he’s turned countless athletes from underweight to 200 lbs completely naturally on a pretty regular basis.
[url]https://startingstrength.com/article/maybe-you-should-gain-weight[/url]

Every athlete benefits from getting stronger through proper barbell trainings. That includes boxers. They’re not special. For the boxers that aren’t bound by a weight limit, they can afford to gain a significant amount of weight.

 

Yes, I want a cookie.

But 15 rounders (and even 12 rounders) are not primarily strength events. They are high intensity stamina events, 15 3-round intervals.. I am a big believer in weight training, have done it myself for 30 years. Gonna go lift in an hour. But you can't take an endurance guy, a high output guy like Marciano, and add again 25% of his weight and expect him to perform at the same rate and consistency, or anywhere near it over 12 or 15 rounds. Especially draping that weight over his bird frame. A giant like Joshua or Wlad carry it much better but even they have run into shallow gas tanks in their careers. The only near exception would be an Alister Overeem type at 6 foot 4 with a big frame. And we know how he did it.

Analogous to taking a miler and adding 30 pounds and telling him he will perform better. Ain't the way it works.

 

I think a main reason Charles moved into the heavyweight division was that there was a functional color line in the light-heavyweight division.

Lesnevich, Mills, and Maxim were the champions in the light-heavy division from 1941 to 1952. These three went 0-10 against Charles, Moore, and Marshall. It is a tough sell to me that the light-heavyweight division had better talent than the heavyweight division, what with Charles losing more often to heavyweights. Charles was unable to get a fight with the inferior light-heavyweight champions, but could get a shot in an elimination title fight at heavyweight.

I think that If there had been no color discrimination at light-heavy, Charles would still have won the heavyweight title, but as the light-heavyweight champion.

And Charles isn't unique. The light-heavyweight Gene Tunney also moved up to win the heavy title a generation earlier. And Bob Fitzsimmons moved up from middle a generation before that.

 

Even though Rocky Marciano did not beat the the Big Mac indulged fighters of today, he did defeat the fighters that were pur in front of him. Promoters make matches, not fighters, and there was only one Muhammad Ali, he was fighting in the amateurs in the 1950's. Rocky was not afraid to fight what was put in front of him, and knew how to behave himself as a champion in the general public. He was a good family man who was mature and provided for them. He respected others, even his opponents. In the ring he did not clown or use bolo punches to make the crowd laugh, he stuck to business at hand, winning the fight with immense determination. Again you can only fight what is put in front of you. Rocky was 49-0, 43 KO 's when he retired in 1956, no other heavyweight ever achieved that in history, he rook his tile seriously, prepared hard for every fight.