Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Modern tracks, modern shoes, and modern blocks (plus year-round drug testing for their modern opponents, as we should always do), Owens would equal today's fastest times. Modern training need not be used, as long as drugs are banned.

Now compare that to boxing. In boxing, you can't use equipment to improve your performance during the match.

 

You can't really determine much from body dimensions when it comes to punching. If you would see a picture of Hearns or Marciano and did not know them, you'd think they wouldn't be able to knock out flyweights.

 

Speed is about power/weight ratios. Ben Johnson probably had the best power to weight ratio as he squated 600lb 3.5times his bodyweight (around 180lbs) - this is much more than Maurice Greene ever managed who also focused on weight lifting

Notice Ben Johnson is around 20lbs heavier than Jesse Owens but generates far more power per pound of bodyweight. Realistically it would be unsuprising if Owens only squated 400lbs or less (many sprinters cant squat that weight)

 

That's the point. It's power and contraction speed per unit of bodyweight, NOT weight and size, that determines speed. So sprinters being bigger isn't a great argument--and although their being stronger definitely is, it isn't as important as speed of contraction (since sprinting is less a power than a speed sport).

 

Jerry Jackson neither had the speed/acceleration/strength or technique to generate good power, I take it you didn't do very well at physics in school or your attempting to be purposely annoying

Power = Muscle/Bones Weight*Leaverage*Acceleration*Strength

Weight - mass behind the punch

Leverage of Weight - is the amount of body power you can generate aswell as body size.

Acceleration - punch speed

 

Considering Owens was not weight-trained, he would have trouble squatting a lot of weight. On the other hand, doing a lot of sprinting and other track-and-field explosive activities (long jump, 220 yds, hurdles) would have increased his speed-per-bodyweight unit. This is more important in a sprinting context than strength-per-bodyweight-unit.

 

If Jesse Owens had modern tracks and modern shoes he'd only run 10.1 or 10.0 tops

10.1 or 10.0 is not as fast as 9.7 (drug free time)

We already have year round random drug testing (so and athlete never knows when they'll be tested and if they miss the test its an automatic ban) if you knew anything about the sport of athletics you would know that.

 

Top end strength = top end power, power/bodyweight=speed. Thats why every sprinter in the world weight trains.

Owens sprinting training wasn't as advanced as modern sprinting training either - the fact you think doing hurdles, long jump and 220yards (this builds speed stamina yes) is training for the 100m shows you know little about sprint training. Sprinters do more explosive starts over 30m for example

Owens also would have benefited from improved nutrition & performance enhancing (legal) supplements.

HEs still only a 10.1 sprinter unless he takes advantage of modern training and nurition

BTW Owens ran 220yards VERY VERY SLOWLY

 

Looking at Marciano vs. Lennox using this criteria:

1. Weight - Weight is useless unless it's backed up by greater strength and speed to accelerate it. I tend to look upon weight in and of itself as rather useless for power generation.

2. Leverage - Marciano usually put a LOT of leverage on his punches. Enough to make him vulnerable to counters, in fact.

3. Acceleration/speed of contraction - Lewis may be faster.

4. Strength - Hard to tell, since strength is often measured by the ability to move opponents around, and they didn't faced equally sized opponents (one had to push bigger guys around).




But I suspect there's some factor we're ignoring. Ali had speed/acceleration in spades, and he was clearly a very strong fighter, but he didn't hit very hard despite a great speed/strength combination.

 

Guys were doing close to that on cinder tracks in the 1890's. There's no way that shoes + starting blocks + a modern track would shave his time by only a tenth of a second.

It's not a question of my knowledge of the sport. Steroids are still getting through despite these measures. Montgomery is the tip of the iceberg here.

As the steroid expert, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how to beat the drug tests?

 

1/4. Yes Lennox had greater strength, his muscles were explosive not for show as you seem to think all bigger fighters are the same strength as smaller fighters. If Lennox was just big without great P4P strength you'd by right but he has P4P strength for his weight. Weight is important too and the weight of his fists, bone density, muscle made the punches heavier

Punching strength is different to clinch strength but Lennox always was strong in the clinches and opponents always commented on how strong he was

2. Yes he got allot of leaverage and was a greater puncher. When Lennox used all of his leverage he has more leverage to make use of.

3. Agreed - great combination of speed and power

5. NO NO NO. Ali had little power because he had no weight behind his punches. He arm punched - so only his arm was behind the punch and not his whole body. It doesnt matter how fast Ali punched because he was only shifting 10lbs of weight or so that his arm weighed. Obviously all of Marcianos body at 180lbs weighs more than Alis 10lb arm right? So Marciano is the bigger puncher despite being slower

 

No. A 187 pound man who is heavy handed but slow does not generate the force of a 250 pound man with great speed to go along with it, it's physically impossible.

This is ridiculous. Lennox hits much harder, Marciano is a cruiserweight essentially and mostly ate up former LHW's, or small HW's in general.

 

Sprinting is closer to the "speed" end of the speed and strength spectrum (speed, speed-strength, explosive power, strength-speed, strength). This would indicate a greater percentage of plyometric and technical training (and sprints, long jump, and to a lesser degree hurdles fit this bill) would be helpful.

More importantly, 30m/40yd starts were common practice in T&F as far back as (yes, you guessed it) the 1890s.

Sources: Bompa Periodization, Sandler Sports Power, Shearman Athletics (1890's book)

Again, modern equipment improves sprint times a lot more than a tenth of a second. If you like, you can test this on a modern track w/starting blocks and then on dirt.

 

No, I don't think that bigger fighters have the same strength as smaller fighters. I do think that there is a diminishing return in both speed and strength as a fighter gets bigger--this is borne out in scores for powerlifting and Olympic lifting.

I agree. But considering we DON'T have any bench/squat/deadlift/snatch/C&J stats to compare between Marciano and Lennox, we have to go on clinch strength.

Going on the same principle of specificity, we have ignored muscles' punching efficiency (i.e. neuromuscular coordination). Which fighter do you believe had greater coordination whilst punching?

He did so seldom compared to Marciano, however.

Yes, but even Ali sat down on his shots from time to time. Would his maximum-leverage shots be equal or greater to Lewis's maximum leverage shots?

 

One final point:

I do NOT think Marciano hits harder than Lewis. But equally, I believe that Louis could hit as had as Lewis. Heavier is not always the same thing as more powerful.