Marciano-I Just Don't Understand It

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janwalshs, Aug 2, 2010.


  1. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Valdes actually lost to light heavyweight Champion Harold Johnson 5'10 and 175 lbs and Archie Moore 2x
     
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  2. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    Exactly

    Im trying to figure out how holmes uppercut would hit marciano who crouches low. Holmes himself being taller would have to crouch lower exposing himself even further
     
  3. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So I guess you think Valdes should have gotten the title shot before Moore even though he lost to Archie 2X during the time frame you speak in addition to Valdes losing to Harold Johnson who was actually a light heavyweight- and Valdes also lost Billy Gilliam and Bob Baker in 53 - Gilliam beaten by Charles and Baker Ko'd by Archie Moore and Satterfield - Everyone that was alive at the time knew Archie was the deserving one despite being Champion and not rated in Heavyweight he was first in line - Valdes was never impressive
     
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  4. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    Have you figured out how the shorter, slower Marciano would be able to land on Holmes from a crouch without Holmes beating him to the punch and avoiding Marciano's return fire?
     
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  5. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    Same way he did with louis. Take the jab in the face if necessary. And walk him down

    Taking punches in the face some times is part of style

    As the saying goes

    " comes with the territory"
     
  6. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Don't you know? Marciano can do anything! Come on man keep up!
     
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  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Holmes had a great chin. But so did Marciano. Holmes was knocked out as an amateur though.

    #1 logical challenger Ezzard Charles was only 2 years older than Rocky, they both fought a great fight at a great pace. Has there been a faster paced 15 rounder at heavyweight?

    it depends who is landing the most punches. weight can tell against a fighter getting tired. Did Rocky gas though?

    This depends on the kinds of jabs being used. I have not seen much film evidence of A forward offensive jab from a fighter taking ring centre being that effective on Rockys crouching distance closing style. Did anyone take ring centre with Ricky? A defensive jab works against Rocky. But you are only talking one at a time with defensive jabs. Between Rockys leads and returns.

    Holmes was asked in 2009 who he thought his toughest opponent would be -
    Holmes- "Well, I'd say Marciano right now because he throws punches from anywhere, from anywhere, from any direction. And he was strong and he took punches. Only difference from now and then is they would've stopped the fight because he be cut, he be bleeding, you understand so they would've stopped the fight, so I'd be victorious. But because he's short and throws punches from left field, from right field, from center field, I mean he just throws and keep coming. He takes the licking and keeps coming."
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And this again is totally irrelevant. The plain fact is Valdes was the Ring's number one contender at the end of 1953 1954 and into 1955 until he was beaten by Moore, look it up! This is what we are discussing
    Taking punches in the face is something any trainer will tell you to try and avoid,it is not recommended as part of a winning strategy.If you are doing it too regularly it indicates your defence is leaky.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    ]Holmes had a great chin. But so did Marciano. Holmes was knocked out as an amateur though.

    #1 logical challenger Ezzard Charles was only 2 years older than Rocky, they both fought a great fight at a great pace. Has there been a faster paced 15 rounder at heavyweight?

    it depends who is landing the most punches. weight can tell against a fighter getting tired. Did Rocky gas though?

    This depends on the kinds of jabs being used. I have not seen much film evidence of A forward offensive jab from a fighter taking ring centre being that effective on Rockys crouching distance closing style. Did anyone take ring centre with Ricky? A defensive jab works against Rocky. But you are only talking one at a time with defensive jabs. Between Rockys leads and returns.


    Holmes was asked in 2009 who he thought his toughest opponent would be -
    Holmes- "Well, I'd say Marciano right now because he throws punches from anywhere, from anywhere, from any direction. And he was strong and he took punches. Only difference from now and then is they would've stopped the fight because he be cut, he be bleeding, you understand so they would've stopped the fight, so I'd be victorious. But because he's short and throws punches from left field, from right field, from center field, I mean he just throws and keep coming. He takes the licking and keeps coming."[/QUOTE]
    Holmes v Norton for one was faster paced. Ali v Norton too.
    Holmes is right Marciano's against Simmons ,and Charles1 would be stopped today with his opponents winning by tko .
    Marciano has to come up out of that crouch to reach Larry;s head and when he does Holmes faster, ,longer, more straighter ,and more accurate right hand finds his head first.Rocky was fighting old men, its natural his stamina would be suprrior to theirs ,and his legs would hold up longer.
    Holmes chin is tried and tested against modern big punching heavyweights such as Witherspoon,Norton,Shavers,Cooney, Marciano's never was.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Louis was a 37 years old washed up, one armed fighter boxing to pay off his IRS debt and he marked Marciano up badly.
    A younger, bigger ,stronger,fresher ,faster Holmes would turn Marciano's face into Ketchup, and Larry has a very fast right hand to keep him honest ,which at that stage Louis did not possess! Larry also has the uppercut for when Marciano gets close.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020 at 2:02 AM
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What I think,what in fact I know is Marciano did not fight Valdes when Valdes was the number one contender during the period I mentioned. This blows the statement that Marciano always defended against his number one challenger,that he gave all deserving challengers a shot ,completely out of the water!

    ps Lastarza lost to a journeymen light heavyweight Rocky Jones two fights before he got his title shot.
    Should he have been disqualified from his challenge because of that loss?
    Charles had lost two of his previous four fights when he got the call to fight Rocky.
    You can't have it both ways Fella!
     
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Nino Valdes stank. He was a mauling Oaf. And not very clever. When he fought James J Parker people walked out. It was difficult for Nino to be seen as a serious threat to the title after that and the memory of him losing to so many lightheavyweights like Moore and Johnson. That said, he was in line after beating Marcianos sparring partner Huricane Jackson but an immediate rematch with Charles blew interest in Nino Valdes right out of the water. With tax issues preventing the champion fighting more than twice a year it was down to Nino to stay interesting before Marciano could next fight. But he wasn’t. Even Don represented marginally more appeal and no more threat than Valdes.

    there were some action packed moments in the final 3 rounds but the first 12 were not faster than Marciano-Charles.

    I disagree. That fight was fought at a walk.

    I already explained Charles was just 2 years older and they fought a faster paced 15 fight than any other two heavyweights.

    The stamina of the men Marciano fought was not an issue in any of their title fights with Rocky.

    Holmes was a great fighter. There is no taking anything away from him. But it’s a bit silly to try and reduce the standing of another great champion simply because he didn’t fight the men Larry did. The credentials of Witherspoon were a bit light at the time and some people think Larry struggled to win the Norton fight. I don’t think any of them were great fighters anyway. Shavers, Norton And Cooney, in the scheme of ATG things were not champions.

    Louis was nowhere near as washed up as you would want people to believe. Of course he was not the same as his incredible championship form but Louis was coming off impressive wins over Cesar Brion who gave as difficult a nights work to Ezzard Charles and Rex Layne. Joe also handled Jimmy Bivins who was still a good fighter.

    Nino was not regarded as much of a draw as Don Cokkell who had the more glamorous recent wins which beside Nino Valdes recent form made it look like there was very little between them so far as worthwhile contenders go. Commissioner Christonberry went on record to say “there is very little between them”. The only challenger considered anything of a threat to Rocky at that time was Archie Moore. He twice beat Valdes. Archie beat the other top heavyweight, Bob Baker senseless too.

    the two fights included a revenge win over Jones and a decision over Rex Layne in what was effectively seen as an eliminator in light of Laynes recent decision over Ezzard Charles. This totally eclipses the Jones blip.

    oh yeah Charles lost a close decision to (Philadelphian) Harold Johnson (in Philadelphia) that could have went either way right after losing to (Cuban) Nino Valdes (in Cuban Miami). The Valdes fight Nino won, but even in winning the Cuban, who at that time was pretty unknown, had been closest to losing by knockout than Charles was who had underprepared and faded later in the fight after failing to finish Valdes off. Rather than fight a rematch with Charles in an eliminator to fight Marciano Nino went off and took other fights to improve his reputation, one of which totally stank and effectively put nino behind the likes of Moore and Cokkell as a viable challenge to Marciano. Meanwhile Bob Satterfeild took Ninos place in the eliminator and nearly had his block knocked off by Ezzard. This was after Charles totally schooled Coley Wallace an up and coming full sized heavyweight who beat Marciano as an amateur.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020 at 7:06 AM
  13. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No you use the uppercut on the short swarmer ,ie Marciano no need at all to crouch to deliver it,try it yourself.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Do you actually know how many turned up for the Cokkell fight? Every newspaper both side of the Atlantic said it was a mismatch,that Cokkell had no chance. Charles was two years older but with 96 fights on his clock ,over twice as many as Marciano!
    Bottom line which I keep repeating is ;
    VALDES WAS THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER AT THE END OF 1953 &1954 AND THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER UNTIL MAY 1955 WHEN MOORE BEAT HIM AND MARCIANO DID NOT DEFEND HIS TITLE AGAINST HIM

    It cannot be made any plainer and all your spin and irrelevant detours will not change that fact!

    Valdes whom you say "stank" had beaten Charles less than a year before Charles got his shot at Marciano!


    You're ridiculous!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020 at 7:30 AM
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  15. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Size isnt the onlying factor.

    Seamus and I are two of the very few people who really know why Mariano quit fighting. Why he let go of the heavyweight title. It wasn't his back.
    Boxing was never his true passion. Basketball was Rockys first love.
    In the summer of 1956 Rocky Marciano joined the famous Rucker League in Harlem. He played Center against them all. Wilt, Thurmond, Russell. Marciano was a bit on the short side but he had heart.
    Not even Wilt Chamberlain could stop Rocky's running hook shot. It was beautiful. He was like a gazelle out there.
     
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