Marciano-I Just Don't Understand It

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janwalshs, Aug 2, 2010.


  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    66,084
    6,890
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    Bowe liked to fight on the inside. Straight away that takes away his stylistic advantage.

    He didn't have the best of defence which allows Rocky the opportunity to land his own shots as well.

    Allow a man with limited defence to trade on the inside with Rocky, i don't favour his chances too much.
     
  2. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    All the heavyweights who would have been normal sized in the past are in the CW division.

    The 200-215 pound men who are between 6'0 and 6'4 are all in the cruiserweight division.

    Some of them who would have been heavyweights in the past are drained down to 175, but those are with few.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
    choklab likes this.
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    91,862
    18,333
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    All matches I make are as each fighter actually was in his prime ,no hypothesized hybrids.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    24,585
    4,049
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 31, 2009
    I agree that heavyweight champions from the past -as they were in the past- fall into the hydrated cruiserweight division now -90% of them- but to say ALL of the heavyweights today who would have been normal sized in the past are todays cruiserweight is not true.

    There are a lot of heavyweights today under 6'4" weighing a lot more than 216lb.

    Larry Holmes was 207 beating Ken Norton. Forman himself against Frazier... training has distorted what is normal.
     
  5. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    The past aways had some heavyweights who were under 6'4 and above 215 pounds.

    Chuvalo, mid way through his career.
    George Johnson later in his career (pretty bulked up 5'9 man)
    Looks like a barrel
    [media]tY24J3dtoXY[/media]
    Bob Baker, but he fluctuated a bit in weight.
    Bugner, but he was 6'4
    George Godfrey (world class)
    Walter Cobb
    Obie Walker (5'8 and BIG and was a good fighter like Godfrey)

    They were just a lot rarer.

    Those guys would have been heavyweights, any era any time anywhere.
     
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    24,585
    4,049
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 31, 2009
    These are all good and fair examples that you use. However you actually said "The 200-215 pound men who are between 6'0 and 6'4 are all in the cruiserweight division." I dont think it's true and you have demonstrated this yourself. You said All of them.

    Even in the past shorter guys made 215 and grew some as they got old. It was the rule rather than the exception that in retirement heavyweights went over and above anything they fought at.

    Today a 215 guy builds into 230 as a starting point before setting out. He will get bigger. When he retires and is away from training and strength coaching (body building) he becomes a much lighter man. And this too for them is becoming more of a rule rather than an exception. Tony Tucker, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfeild, Pinklon Thomas and Frank Bruno all settled at a lighter looking weight away from the sport.

    Crucially, 90% of the best Heavyweights we have ever seen fall within the modern hydrated cruiserweight category.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  7. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    Men who become ligther later after their career is mostly down to their diet.
    Those guys also tended to be more consistent with their training and likely know that they had to reduce their food intake once they stopped training for fights.
    And some have other explenations, Tyson is a vegetarian and Thomas was a heroin addict.


    Yea, it was a bit of a hyperbole to say all of the guys between 200-215 are in the CW.

    But one reason why the heavyweight division is so much heavier now is that there are a lot of 6'0-6'4 men are in the cruiserweight division. (and some drained to 175)

    There are guys who have added weight to compete at heavyweight.
    Eric Molina and Artur Spzilka for example.

    But for every Molina and Spzilka you get a Dorticos, a Gassiev, a Shumenov, Bellew too.
    Tomasz Adamek too, was always a bit drained at 175 but later campaigned at hw. (natural CW)

    Nobunara Ishida former 154 pounder, even at 200 pound he didn't look too bulked up.
    This content is protected

    This content is protected


    Sure, it's easier than ever to bulk up.
    But it's also easier than it's ever been to fight at lower weights.
    And there are so many fighters who choose to be drained over fighting in their natural division.
    And in Europe where there is money in the CW division, the fighters who are comfortable at 200-220 fight in the CW division.
    But there are also some American cruiserweights.

    6'4 Isiah Thomas
    Andrew Tabiti
    Keith Tapia
    Michael Hunter
    Steve Cunningham

    Of the current top heavyweights I think only Luis Ortiz wasn't 200+ from the very beginning. (At 26 he competed at 200 lbs, AM)


    imo, it's easier to name drained down fighters/cruiserweights who would have fought as heavyweights in the 70s than it is to name current top heayweights who would have been much smaller in the past.
     
  8. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    If Bobie Walker would have fought today, would people be arguing he'd have been 180 pounds in 1940?
    This content is protected
     
  9. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    Holyfield's weight progression wasn't much different from Jimmy Ellis.

    Except that Holyfield was already a lightheavyweight amateur (178 pounds) at 21 and Jimmy Ellis was fighting at 160.
    In fact, Ellis stayed at 160 for 3 years.
     
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    42,513
    12,556
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    I couldn't pick Marciano over any of these heavies. History has bore out this position as none were defeated by tiny, slow, powerpunchers who came into their opponents' wheelhouse consistently. In fact no one possessing those attributes has made a dent in the division in the past 30 years. Progress is a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
    mrkoolkevin likes this.
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    66,084
    6,890
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    I don't think the likes of Dempsey and Marciano would exist in the HW divsion without bulking up.

    Same way if I was to pit Hagler against Spinks I wouldn't expect Hagler to remain at 160 pounds.
     
  12. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    How many are there even in other divisions.

    Maybe some of the Japanese in the lower weight divisions.
     
    mrkoolkevin likes this.
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    24,585
    4,049
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 31, 2009
    Obbie Walker was not a champion heavyweight. But he looks like a tub of lard to me.

    I stand by what I said before. 90% of the best Heavyweights we have ever seen fall into today's hydrated cruiserweight class.
     
    Rock0052 likes this.
  14. mostobviousalt

    mostobviousalt Active Member banned Full Member

    520
    96
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 4, 2016
    World coloured heavyweight title holder.

    About as prestigious as an alphabet paper title many "champions" have had.

    And with the 2nd point.
    There simply haven't been that many superheavies until relatively recently so of course the smaller guys will be most of the best if they're by far the majority.

    And Obbie is slimmer than Galento.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    89,816
    7,654
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 21, 2007
    This is true. But it won't be in 80 years.
     
    Rock0052 and choklab like this.