Marciano-I Just Don't Understand It

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janwalshs, Aug 2, 2010.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I recall Marciano running out of gas in an amateur fight , getting the worst of it ,and resorting to kicking his opponent in the nuts,Never thought he'd make it in the pro ranks. Wells was 5'10" but typically over 200lbs ,so hardly tiny.If he was , how would you describe 185lbs Marciano ?

    "By 1972, I'd won several eastern titles and was invited to Minnesota to compete in a tournament that was said to figure heavily in the selection of the U.S. boxing team. I made it all the way to the finals there, only to run up against a left-handed slugger named Nick Wells. It was the first time I'd fought a lefty. It threw my reactions off. I was hesitant and ended up being an easy target for Wells, who had good power. Good enough to give me the worst beating of my career and stop me in the third round. My first-ever defeat. The way things unfolded, I had another opportunity against Wells in a later tournament in Texas. This time I managed to find left-handed sparring partners to get ready for him. Guess what? It didn't matter. Not one bit. That guy Wells had my number, and he beat me again. Badly."
     
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  2. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Vingo was 6'4" but only 189lbs.
     
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  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Which posters say he wasn't fit to spar with todays fighters?
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And Marciano had Al Weill as manager ,the matchmaker for MSG and a front man for Frankie Carbo .
     
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The underlined isn't entirely true,At the end of 1953 and 1954 Nino Valdes was the number one challenger,
    but Rocky did not fight him.I would pick Rocky to win but nevertheless it never happened .
    I don't believe either Lastarza or Cokkell were the most qualified of challengers either .Lastarza had recently been beaten by a journeyman light heavy and dropped in their return fight .He got the title shot on the basis of a close,controversial fight with Rocky some 3 years before and a split dec over a fading,unmotivated Layne,who was never the same after being put through the ringer by Marciano . Cokkell's claims for a shot were based on beating a hyped lhvy Mathews whose bubble had been emphatically burst by Marciano previously ,and a close win over a diminished Lastarza whom Marciano had ruined.The Cokkell fight did nothing at the gate because everyone knew the result before hand it was a palpable mismatch ,which even Rocky,that most dedicated of trainers found hard to motivate himself for.
    imo Neither Lastarza or Cokkell beat live contenders for their shot at Rocky.
    Valdes was the number 1 challenger in 53 when number 4 Lastarza got his shot.
    And number one in 55 when Cokkell no2 got his. Moore took over Valdes slot that year, but that was after the Marciano v Cokkell fight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  6. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I have HUGE respect for Rocky, but Larry would have jabbed and uppercutted him silly. Not sure at all of a stoppage, but a split decision for Larry, absolutely. And there would be some SERIOUSLY scary moments for Larry (probably a knockdown from his Achilles' heel, the overhand right).

    Marciano, like Larry, beat the best presented to him and retired undefeated. If there's anything to "not get over", his being unbeaten is exactly that imo.
     
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  7. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Very weak and misleading because Archie Moore was light Heavyweight Champ and had already beat Nino on 3/11/53- Nino Valdes lost a fight to Harold Johnson at the end of 1952 and lost 3 in a row in 1953 - he lost to Archie Moore 3/11/53 then lost to Billy Gilliam on 4/20/53, the lost to Bob Baker 5/21/53 - he won a close decision over Charles in 8/11/53 but refused to rematch Charles and Charles beat Nino Conqueror Billy Gilliam

    In the meantime Archie KO'd Nino conqueror Bob Baker KO 8 0n 3/09/54 and Nino got a disputed sd win over Archie McBride (many felt Nino lost)- Then Nino lost again to Archie Moore for the Elimination fight to fight Marciano and was given another chance against the 5'10 178 lb Bob Satterfield (who was already KO'd by Charles and Moore) and Nino lost the UD Nino was dropped for a 9 count in the 10th and final round.

    As far as LaStarza he was 53-3 , he had lost to Dan Bucceroni in 1951 but won a decision over thye 6'2 41-2 Bucceroni in 1952 and also avenged a loss to Rocky Jones in 1952 and then LaStarza had a win over Rex Layne in 2/13/53 so at that point the only loss the 53-3 Roland LaStarza did not avenge was the Rocky Marciano SD loss from 1950 and the rematch had great interest especially in the NY area where LaStarza was a big name

    Marciano did pretty good fighting the best of his day - 5 #1 contenders in 6 defenses - NO color line- 7 title fights 7 wins 6 by KO- unified lineal Champion- some people will still pick hairs
     
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  8. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Not you. But you must read other posters? Saudhound (guy who’s changed his name seven times think it was Childress or something before) Pat etc. you and Seamus are at least critical on a more fair level.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The facts are at the end of 53 and 54 ,and into May55 Valdes was the number 1 contender, then he was beaten by Moore and lost his top ranking that is neither weak or misleading it is a stone cold fact!
    The fact that Moore had previously beaten Valdes has absolutely no relevance to the fact that Valdes was the number one contender during the periods I have mentioned.
    Likewise what Valdes did or did not do subsequently is also irrelevant!
    Bucceroni was a light heavyweight,he weighed 181lb s for their fights. Jones was a lightheavyweight and a journeyman into the bargain.
    Lastarza got the call because he had given Marciano a good fight, [many thought he was robbed,] 3 years earlier,and because he had beaten a past his sell by date Layne by a split dec.
    The number of guys ranked in Lastarza's era that he did not fight would fill up a thread on its own, he was a very astutely managed fighter who was protected from the iron of the division.
    Lastarza wasn't the no1 contender he was no4 ,neither was Cokkell. In a Ring interview Lastarza said he was offered some of the contenders but his manager wanted to parlay his close fight with Marciano 3 years earlier into a big pay day, and they were fearful of being beaten and put out of the picture.As Weill held all the cards via his matchmaking position at MSG ,and his close links to Norris and Carbo
    Apart from a damaged Layne whom Lastarza beat by split dec, he never beat a ranked contender!
    14 of his victims had losing records. A manufactured record.
    All I've done here is correct Janitor's assertion that Marciano always defended against the most deserving challengers, he didn't.
    If that's an inconvenient truth, it is never the less, still the truth!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  10. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    Idk i think larry being a jabber fits into marcianos. Style advantages
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Can you elaborate on this for us please?
     
  12. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    Lol for" us" or for you you mean
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, if you would be so kind.
     
  14. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    Just all of rockys opponents at the top that he faced were mostly jabbers....

    I feel that's the weapon they used most against him . and thats all they could use.

    Holmes being a jabber i feel that would fit into marcianos experience with them . find a way past the jab.

    Not saying rocky can beay larry ..

    Just saying the style fits
     
  15. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I'm interested as well.
     


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