Marciano in other eras with out the respectfull champs.

If he could fight at 180 and under while he was well into his 20's, then it's fairly certain that he could cut 5 pounds from that to make the 175 limit. Thanks to the day before weigh-ins he doesn't have to actually fight at that weight but can comfortably come in at 180-190 as he usually does.

Witherspoon against Holmes is not what I'd describe as "fat":

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIWkfLE0sg[/ame]


He was a solid 6'3 210-220 pounds.

So it's easier for 5'10 Marciano to add weight than 6'2 Holyfield or 6'3 Michael Spinks? I don't see how that works. Sure he could fight at 190-200, I never denied that, but he would have far more trouble trying to fight at over 200 pounds than the likes of Holyfield, Moorer, Spinks did. It's some kind of a fantasy that today Marciano would be a Tyson-like 5'10, 220 lb wrecking machine. That's not going to happen. He was not a big heavyweight no matter how you look at it.

 

I don't know. How do you pick Dempsey over both Klitschko brothers then? That's a 70 lb weight disadvantage? Frazier over the Klits? 50 LB weight disadvantage. It's a style thing I guess, or perhaps you just continue with that double standard (seems that way). These Heavyweights have proven they can beat much bigger men. And once you get to that 180+ range you're more capable of beating bigger men. Rocky, Frazier, and Dempsey all did it at least enough to prove that bigger man don't neccessarily just beat them. Louis, although way past it still had a decent jab. Rocky beat him, and this Louis still had some string left and Rocky took it very well. Louis was 30 lbs bigger and pretty lean by HW standards. How many times did Monzon beat someone that was 25+ pounds bigger than him?

Which two? I'm sure his training regime was more intense considering he was arguably the most dedicated and determined HW champ.

 

marciano was naturaly bigger than micheal spinks. forget the hight for a moment spinks was a middleweight when he physicaly matured then he built up. Marciano was over 200 when he naturaly physicaly matured. he fought at atime where the best trained to be fast and fit so he did too. he was a big guy. how big does anyone think tyson naturaly was left to his own devices? he was very thin when he came out of prison.

 

This is how I see it too.

 

And his dedication. 6 to 9 months for a fight of intense training. that's also why the guy didn't weigh much. Those guys from the 80's were never in that kind of shape and were not in the same league as far as dedication goes.

Actually, it doesn't even have to be Marciano to beat those guys. Just take a top heavy with tools. You have nonstop 6 to 9 months training and preparations. Then add a Charlie Goldman working that same amount of time probing and finding weaknesses of the opponent. 80's guy is in trouble against that every time.

 

The problem is Marciano was already training down hard and coming into those fights as light as he probably could. He was incredibly trim at 184 when he won the title, something like 14" inch biceps, this was not a thick stocky guy. He looked a little better filled out against Charles and Moore when he was coming close to 190. Sure, he could make a stab at 175 at the beginning of his career but realistically, its not something I'd see him keeping up comfortably very long.

Witherspoon was looking pretty soft once he started hovering around 220, he wasn't exactly trim at that weight. He started to balloon at the top, jumping from a consistent 205-209 to 220 and beyond.

Genetically for whatever reason, shorter stockier guys on average add muscle mass easier than taller long limbed guys. This is why there is a stigma against tall body builders, Arnold was considered a giant at "6'1" ish. It took the long limbed Holyfield years and unforunately the help of illegal supplements to get so massive and he still never developed the huge punching power he craved. Now a taller guy should be able to carry more weight easier on his bigger frame which is what your thinking of but Spinks was smart enough to only add about 25-30 lbs to his fighting weight. I'm sure he could have pulled an Adamek and went much higher, but probably at the cost of his stamina with little additional punching power.

Overall, we seem to agree that Marciano could probably hover around 200 like peak Frazier and fight comfortably. He would never be the size of Tyson and Tua without losing his great stamina. And 200-205 against a hopefully top fit 215ish Snipes/Witherspoon wouldn't be as huge a contrast in weight. Of course this is all educated guessing, but I don't think we are stretching too much.

 

He'd do well in any era. He could possibly beat some of the giants of today
but if he wants to end on a 49-0 note, he'd do better to stick to cruserweight.

 

If he was training down really hard he would have drained himself. Instead he trained himself down to the best condition possible. The boxers today train down to make weight, not to fight at their best weight. I don't condone this practise, it is what it is, but it's possible for even a man who walks around at 200+ lbs to fight at 175 these days.

I'd say he could look both soft and solid at 220 pounds. He was not the most dedicated trainer. Against Holmes he was in good shape but in other fights where he weighed around the same amount he looked "soft". But he carried the 220 pounds against Holmes very well and didn't seem to lack any stamina.

I'm not really talking about body building though because body builders don't think stamina or speed. I'm talking about a boxer adding weight. In boxing it has traditionally been the lanky tall fighter who has been effective moving up in weight more so than the short and stocky type. Look at Thomas Hearns for example. Mickey Walker was more of a Marciano type and was successful moving up in weight but he seemed to be slightly overweight at 175 and was better off at 160.

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I think that 180-190 is the perfect weight for Marciano and that he could still beat any of the 1980's contenders head-to-head but over a 49 fight career overcoming such size differences fight after fight could be taxing to his body. With modern training techniques and 12 round fights, Rocky could likely be effective at around 200 lbs but I'm not sure there are any proven advantages in "bulking up" to a boxer. Usually when a boxer adds weight they just become less effective. Even Holyfield and Spinks were better at their natural weights.

 

up until the 1950s smaller guys did very well against giants. I wonder if this has anything to do with the gloves? 1956 in heavyweight title fights gloves moved from 6oz to 8oz. At some time later the filling in the gloves changed from horse hair (that was often manipulated and corupted away from the knuckles by cornermen) to foam or rubber. Gloves are more often 10 oz now. thats an extra 4 oz.
The point im making here is with the smaller gloves (with the filling that could be doctored) punches did the job regardless of size. maybe this is why speed and lightness was king?
maybe the harder it is to knock someone out heavyweights evolved the need to find an edge with size? to wear a guy down.

 

-Sure, Marciano might make a 175 day before weigh in if he drained himself unhealthily.

-In Holmes era, Rocky would be forced to bulk up a little so he could make the weight requirement of 195 comfortably. I think he could do this with reasonable comfort considering the improved nutrition of the era. I find this scenario more likely than him dehyrdating and killing himself to fight at light heavy or wasting away in the insignificant crusier divison.

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This is what his brother Peter Marciano believes to. I think his opinion on the matter should matter since he knew his brother. Who knows what it would've done to Rocky. Probably tax that legendary stamina. But in a 12 round setting he would still be a class above in terms of stamina.

 

the guys of the 1980s would have weighed 190-200 tops in the 50's. It works both ways. take the love handles, saddle bags and man boobs away from the 80s guys and not many would scale 190lb!

 

Which is why I never brought up Weaver or Spinks in the first place. Page wasn't overweight when he was 210-220, he was overweight when he was 230+. It's just a fact that the average contender in the 1950's was nowhere near the size of the average contender in the 1980's. You don't even have to look at their weights, the height and reach difference is very telling. In the 1950's there was only one fighter who was 6'3 with an 80 inch reach and that was Nino Valdes. In the 1980's there were numerous.

I don't see any kind of a case to be made for Walcott, LaStarza, Layne being the size of Cooney, Thomas, Page, Coetzee.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhIYGB4cWn4[/ame]

Im sure most of you have seen this. Its intresting ali does not question the weight factor at all but rates marciano regardless.

 

thats because Ali knew what was inside a man. He knew Marciano would be a tough fighter to beat. I am a big fan of Marciano as everyone knows. I have confidence in the fact he would have competed at any era. I do feel that if you took the fighter of the 70's ( very close to the 50's in training, still very little weights) Liston used them during his prison stint but most fighters did not use them other than the wall weights.(pullys)

I think if you took any of the fighters of today including the Klitschko's and Lewis and let them fight in the 50's ( there would be less enhancers for muscle gain and they would be less muscled.

I think If Marciano was around today, he would be bigger and with an emphasis on muscle gain he would be more muscled. My brother is 6" 210lbs in good shape but his 18 year old son is 6"4 245lbs but he has gennerally been doing weights as part of his regement in Jr High to high school. Its part of the training for sports such as football and wrestling.

But...That is neither here or there...Marciano was one of the most fit and cardio trained of all of the Heavyweights of all time. In todays times I can see him bulking up with muscle and I can see him weighing 220 and still be cut. I think the only positive thing about the extra weight would be for him to push a bit vs the bigger guys. Marciano was super strong for his size he was 5"11 but was a freak for a small guy with crazy power,stamina and intestinal fortitude. I think his strength would alway be stamina and his awkward rytym breaking style. Funny but Joe Frazier said the 2 greatest fighters were Louis and Marciano and Ali is being honest here. Marciano and Ali became good friends but Ali did say he could jaw my kin folks in Africa and felt his power as an old man.

Louis, Ali and Marciano fit into my A bracket of ATG heavyweights