Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

I agree with most of what you wrote. Prime is different for everyone. Walcott was in his "prime" when he was in his 30's. He became a Top 10 Contender in 1945 at the age of 31. He even got better with age. Others such as Pipino Cuevas was in his prime at a very young age and by his mid-20's he was finished.

Charles was approx. the same age as Ali BUT Charles was slipping like you stated and was no where near what Ali was.

Rocky did beat all the bigger boxers he fought but he only faced 1 that was a world class boxer that was over 6 feet and weighed over 200 pounds, and that was Louis. This does not mean that he wouldn't have beaten the Bigger contenders. I honestly believe that he would have beaten them all during that time.

Here's a list of all the contenders when Rocky was the Champion. The ones in BOLD is who he fought at one time or another. I also included their career record, with their height, (approx.) weight and their highest annual rating during the time Rocky was Champion.

1. Jersey Joe Walcott (1) – 6’0” – 197 – (51-18-2)
2. Archie Moore (1) – 5’11” – 188 – (185-23-11)
3. Nino Valdez (1) - 6’3” – 210 – (48-19-2)
4. Ezzard Charles (2) – 6”0” – 190 – (89-25-1)
5. Don Cockell (2) – 5’11” – 205 – (65-14-1)
6. Rex Layne (2) – 6’1” – 193 – (50-17-3)
7. Bob Baker (2) - 6’2” – 215 – (51-16-1)
8. Dan Bucceroni (3) - 6’2” – 190 – (46-6)
9. Tommy Jackson (3)- 6' 3½” – 195 – (34-9-1)
10. Roland LaStarza (4) – 6’0” – 185 – (57-9)
11. John Holman (4) - 6’3” – 205 (27-17-1)
12. Bob Dunlop (4) – 182 _ (30-13-1)
13. Clarence Henry (5) - 6’1” – 185 – (34-6-1)
14. Earl Walls (5) - 6'2½” – 192 – (34-9-1)
15. Willie Pastrano (5) – 6’0” – 175 – (63-13-8)
16. Johnny Williams (6) – 195 – (60-11-4)
17. Heinz Neuhaus (6) – 6’2” – 212 (43-9-7)
18. Johnny Summerlin (7) – 6’1” – 195 – (35-8-2)
19. Tommy Harrison (8) – 182 – (22-13-2)
20. Bob Satterfield (8) – 6’2” – 185 – (50-25-4)
21. Karel Sys (9) – 5’11” – 210 – (114-17-10)
22. Charley Norkus (9) – 6’0” – 195 – (33-19)
23. Young Jack Johnson (9) – 6’3” – 208 – (24-20-1)
24. Jimmy Bivins (10) – 5’9” – 185 – (86-25-1)
25. Coley Wallace (10) – 6’2” – 205 – (20-7)
26. Jimmy Slade (10) – 180 – (36-23-6)


Others that were rated during that time were:
1. Paul Andrews – 6’3” – 180 – (37-10)
2. Bill Gilliam – 6’2” – 210 - (30-20-2)
3. James J. Parker – 6’3” – 210 - (30-7-4-)
4. Franco Cavicchi – 202 – (71-14-4)
5. Cesar Brion - 6'2½” – 202 – (32-7-4)

 

My comments would be that LaStarza, while only #4 in a yearly rating, actually was the #1 contender in the late summer of 1953 when he fought Marciano. Charles was also the #1 contender when he fought Marciano. Valdes was rated #1 at the end of 1953, but dropped back with a poor performance against McBride at Havana in which "most" neutral observers thought he lost while Charles ko'd Wallace and Satterfield. Marciano-Frazier has posted several times on this issue. I would say of the top 7 men out there, Marciano fought six of them.

It is also interesting that lightheavy Harold Johnson, never rated at heavy, defeated Charles, Moore, Valdes, Henry, Bivins, Andrews, Holman, and Satterfield. He is certainly the best man from the era whom Marciano did not fight but conceivably could have. Johnson was 5' 10" & 175 lbs.

The problem with the size is that there weren't that many fighters of over 200 lbs of any ability back in those days.
In the Marciano era, from 1950 to 1955, Louis, Baker, Valdes, and Holman were the only men over 6 foot and 200 lbs to be rated in the top five (champion and top four contenders). The best of them, in my judgement, was clearly Louis, even at 37. Valdes, Baker, and Holman all lost badly to Satterfield--Baker and Holman by ko's and Valdes by a one-sided decision in which he was down for a nine count in the last round and barely survived--and I don't see Louis losing to Satterfield. Valdes was a preliminary fighter prior to 1953. I think Marciano should have fought him in 1955 rather than Cockell, but how far can we push it for a guy who lost to Satterfield, twice to Moore, to Johnson, to Gilliam, and twice to Baker, while Marciano was champion. Baker certainly might have been matched with Marciano, and Al Weill was pumping for such a match in 1955, but the press went into an uproar about Marciano ducking Moore, and with good reason. Moore had knocked out Baker in 1954. Holman didn't break the ratings until 1955 and was never among the real elite of the division.
And the size argument also applies to most of the other old champions--who did Jeffries beat who was over 210 lbs and a top fighter. No one. What about Johnson--just old Jeffries and perhaps a green McVey. Dempsey--Willard, Morris, and Firpo. Tunney-no one. Schmeling-no one. Patterson-no one. Take even Liston--who did he beat who was over 210 and rated in the top five? Old Nino Valdes was no longer rated. Williams was not yet rated. The answer is no one.
You might be more impressed with Sharkey beating Godfrey or Louis beating Baer than Marciano beating Louis, but there aren't all that many other more impressive victories over a big man than Marciano over Louis prior to the 1970's.

 

As you are pointing out, their really wasn't much here at that time. Nino Valdes was rated #1 at the end of 1953 & 1954. After losing 4 in a row early in 1953, he won his next 11 in a row before losing again to Archie Moore. During that steak he did beat some pretty good names such as Charles and Tommy Jackson. He was 1st rated in October of 1953 and he made his last appearence in the rating in February 1960. All toll, he was rated for 62 months.

Gilliam was rated was rated #10 for a few months from the beginning of 1954 and to the beginning of 1956.

Parker was rated #9 in 1955, BUT only for a couple of months.

Holman was rated as high as #4 from 1950 to 1957, BUT he did lose a lot in the early 1950's.

Young Jack Johnson was rated #9 BUT was only rated in the top 10 for 2 months, from March to April of 1956.

Bob Baker was rated as high as #2 in the World from 1950 to 1957. After losing to Moore he went on to win 13 in a row including wins over Baksi, Wallace twice, Slade, Rex Layne 3 times, Julio Mederos and Valdes.

Neuhaus was rated as high as #4, from the beginning of 1951 to the middle of 1956. He was rated in the top 10 for a total of 39 months during that time. That shows you that the division was weak as you stated, Neuhaus--Fairly ordinary European champion.

Wallace as you know beat Rocky in the Amateurs and Rocky wanted to box him in the worse way. I had the privillage of meeting and introducing Wallace at the unveiling of a monument of Joe Louis in Pompton Lakes, New Jersey, where Louid use to train. Several days before that I was asked by the Marciano family (his brother) to MC the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano stamp.

 

I don't think there was much over 200 lbs, but there rarely was prior to the 1970's.

This is the #6 through #10 contenders in 1935:

6. Eddie Mader
7. Hank Hankinson
8. Ray Impellitiere
9. Al Ettore
10. Ford Smith

This is an unimpressive group. Only Ettore maintained himself at all. This might be an extreme example, but I think once you get down past the top five, this sort of mediocrity would be true more often than not in most eras. Heinz Neuhaus might look like a champ in this company. I don't think the heavyweight division was weaker than usual in the early 1950's.

 

On Cockell losing to Turpin--Turpin might have been close to the best p4p fighter in the world before he got into drugs. He had beaten Robinson badly and done well in the rematch. Robinson didn't seem to want to risk a rubber match despite the public demand.

But middleweights beating heavyweight contenders or even champions is not unusual. Joe Choynski, who weighed 158 for a fight in 1899, ko'd Jack Johnson in 1901. Johnny Sudenberg, whose every listed weight is less than 160 lbs and who only won 9 of 60 odd fights, dropped future champ Jack Dempsey 9 times in the first round and went on to fight a draw. Angel Rodriguez, at 167 lbs, blasted out Luis Angel Firpo in one round. Former Welter Champ Young Corbett II at 157 lbs dropped Billy Conn and outpointed him. Conn barely beat the count against middleweight Oscar Rankins. Jimmy Ellis had a losing record against rated middleweights before puffing up to heavy and winning the WBA crown in the Ali-Frazier era. Of Dempsey's title defenses, Miske, Brennan, Gibbons, and Tunney lost to the middleweight Greb, Carpentier was stopped by several middles, and Firpo blown away by Rodriguez. Plus Jack Sharkey went to a draw with Walker. If you fight at middle, you probably will lose at middle. At least that has been the pattern.

 

Very true
knowledgeable & Intellegent post :goodGood Work O.F.

 

and Ellis was dropped in his loss to Rubin Carter as a middleweight but also lost to Holly Mims, Henrey Hank, Don Fullmer,George Benton but when he moved up in weight he had wins and many Ko's among his victims Johnny Persol KO9, Leotis Martin KO9 w10 Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry and Floyd Patterson....Ellis was pretty durable as a heavy and was only stopped by Frazier and Ali and an older version by Shavers after staggering Earnie...In fact an older version of Ellis went 12 rds with a prime Ron Lyle...so how do you figure

 

Actually during their time, here's their top ratings:

3. Al Ettore - Dec. 1935 to Feb. 1939 (23 months)
3. Ford Smith - Sept. 1935 to March 1936 (7 months)
4. Hank Hankinson - June 1935 to March 1936 (9 months)
6. Ray Impellitiere - Feb. 1936 to Feb. 1937 (7 months
6. Eddie Mader - Dec. 1935 to March 1936 (4 months)

As you can see only Ettore was rated for more then 9 months.

I agree that there were several other weak periods.

I always said that the strongest was in the 1970's. If you look at any top 10 ratings when Ali was the Champion, you will see that he fought more then half of them during his career and in some years, he fought almost all of them.

Louis also fought most of them as well until the late 1940's.

During Rocky's time as Champion, he fought only 4 top contenders at the end of 1952 ratings, 3 each at the end of 1953 & 1954 and only 2 at the end of 1955.

 

Cockell was KO'ed out 9 times during his career, 6 before he fought Rocky. I have watched the films of that bout and we can all see what kind of fighter he was. He really didn't look like he was in the best of shape either.

Dempsey fought less then 1 year when he fought Johnny Sudenberg and 6 months later Dempsey stopped him in 2 rounds.

 

I agree, BUT none of those middleweights stopped Ellis like they did Cockell. After his loss to Benton in November, 1964, he gained some weight and won his next 12 in a row, including winning the WBA Heavyweight Title in April, 1968.

Cockell won his last 10 in a row after losing to Randy then he got his shot at Rocky.

If you compare the middleweight/light heavyweights that beat Cockell, outside of Randy, to those who beat Ellis, you will see what I am talking about.

You can also compare the Heavyweights that each of them beat leading up to their title shots.

 

Marciano said he was suprised at Cockell's resistance ,"my best punches didnt seem to affect him". Cockell had a bad bout of glandular fever,and it affected his metabolism aversely,he had a flabby torso ,but there was nothing wrong with his heart. I don't think he thought he could beat Marciano,just before he went into the ring he said to his manager "whatever happens out there ,don't you f*****g well stop it"

 

Ellis was world Champion and a better fighter than Cockell...Same with James Toney..He took a beating off James Tiberi at middleweight but James went on to beat a lot of the big guys but James was a great fighter...Cockell was an opponent, Marciano's weakest challenger but still # 2 contender and a decent payday while testing out his nose but Marciano completly dominating Cockell, it was target practice...I remember Gerrie Cooney winning the Golden gloves as a middleweight then getting stopped by Eddie Davis as a Lightheavy then going on to become a top contender in the Heavys....The point is that even Archie Moore had losses at the lower weight but improved with age and size to be an ATG as he moved up

 

Actually Valdez was still rated until Feb. 1960, Liston beat him in Aug. 1959, BUT that's a very good point. Liston also beat my good friend Chuck Wepner (I have the gloves Liston use in that bout).

Louis also beat some good big contenders, such as Lou Nova, Abe Simon, Godoy, Carnera, Stanley Poreda, Buddy Baer, Max Baer, Tommy Farr and I would add Galento BUT he was only 5'9".

 

No one compares to Louis and Ali. How do other champions rate. Liston had fought 3 in 1962-He had beaten Patterson, Folley, and Williams. He would later fight Ali. You could add Machen in 1964.

From 1950 to 1955, fighters ranked in the yearly RING rankings as champions or #1 or #2 contenders were Charles, Louis, Savold, Walcott, Layne, Valdes, Cockell, Moore, and Baker. Nine men. Marciano fought and defeated seven.

From 1959 to 1964, Fighters ranked in the yearly RING rankings as champions or #1 or #2 contenders were Johansson, Folley, Patterson, Machen, Ali, Jones. Six men. Liston fought four and defeated three. He did not fight Johansson or Jones.

From 1937 to 1948 (with 1943-1945 out), fighters ranked in the yearly RING RATINGS as champions or #1 or #2 contenders were Schmeling, Farr, Nova, Baer, Galento, Pastor, Godoy, Conn, Franklin, Bivins, Mauriello, Ray, Walcott, Charles. Fourteen men. Louis fought 12 out of the 14, but Charles and Bivins are special cases, with Bivins fighting Louis years after he was the top contender and Louis the champion, and Charles being met in a comback fight. Of the other 12, Louis fought and beat 10, but did not fight Franklin and Ray.

From 1971 to 1976 fighters ranked in the yearly RING RATINGS as champions and #1 or #2 contenders were Frazier, Ali, Quarry, Norton, Young. Five men. Foreman did not fight Quarry. He knocked out Frazier and Norton, but lost to Ali and Young.

From 1968 to 1973 fighters ranked in the year RING ratings as champions or #1 or #2 contenders were Ali, Ellis, Foreman, and Quarry. Four men. Frazier fought them all, beating Ali, Ellis, and Quarry, while losing to Foreman and Ali.

If we use 1936 to 1941 for Louis, to give him a six year period, Braddock, Schmeling, Farr, Nova, Baer, Galento, Pastor, Godoy, Conn, and Franklin were rated #1 or #2. 10 men--Louis fought 9.

Besides who is fighting who, what impresses me here is the greater volatility of the ratings in the Louis and Marciano era and the gradual decline into the seventies.

Fighters rated #1 or #2 or champ counting in main man

1936 to 1941----11

1950 to 1955----10

1958 to 1963----7

1968 to 1973----5

1971 to 1976----6

More fighters could push to the top of the ratings in the 1936 to 1955 eras. Why?

 

Cockell was the weakest Marciano challenger. He would rank about 9th on a list of Marciano opponents both in ability and resume. Where would Ellis rank on a list of Frazier's opponents? No where near as low as 9th I would guess. He might rank as the second best man Frazier defeated.