Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

I think a prime louis would have been the only problem, they possibly would have traded the title and had a trilogy of fights

 

I agree, BUT you'll have to admit, Cockell was stopped many times during his career.

That is not the record for being stopped the most times before getting a shot at the Heavyweight Title. Do you know who holds that record and how many times was he KO'ed before getting his shot AND who did he box?

 

Lee Oma (16)--Ezzard Charles

 

This is fascinating. I would really be interested in seeing a comparision with other eras such as 1930 to 1935 or 1960 to 1965 etc. The 20th man here is Satterfield. How would he compare to the 20th man from 1930 to 1935? How would the 25th man compare? I know it would be a great deal of work, but I think it would be very interesting.

 

Yes, I did it using all the ratings for every month. I think its because there were so many boxers back when, and they all kept fighting each other, so there was a big turn over. I still think the Heavyweights of the 1970's was the best from top to bottom.

Correct!

That was too easy!

 

I would've loved seeing marciano vs baer :yep

 

That wouldn't take as long as you think it would especially if your just going by year end ratings. Like I stated before, I am working on all the top 10 contenders in each weight class since the start of the Ring Rating system started in 1925. Now that is taking me a long time to complete. Once in a while, I have to take a break and I get on web sites that this or run the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame meetings, etc.

 

Here's what I put down when I was comparing Ali and Louis: Each boxer I have rated for Ali, was rated in the top 3 at one time or another. These are only the boxers each of them BEAT.

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1

This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.

That’s 31 wins against 23 different opponents. All 23 opponents were rated #3 or better in the World at one time or another by Ring Magazine.

 

good post.

 

1. On Cockell--The only film I've seen of him is against Marciano and they generally only show the later floundering rounds. But I would like to say a few things for him.

81 fights 66 wins 14 losses 1 draw 38 ko's 9 ko by

But he turned pro in his teens and three of those knockout defeats were before his 20th birthday. Another was at 21 when as a lightheavy he puffed up to 182 and fought the 194 lb Aaron Wilson. From that point to the Marciano fight he won 20 of 22, being stopped by Jimmy Slade and Randy Turpin. Turpin was a former champion and Slade a man who was rated highly. His wins included Lloyd Marshall, Albert Yvel, Freddie Beshore, Nick Barone, Albert Finch, Tommy Farr, Johnny Williams, Roland LaStarza, and Harry Matthews. Not overly impressive, but all these were rated at one time or another and Williams, LaStarza, and Matthews were rated when he defeated them. After losing to Marciano, he put on 13 lbs in three months and lost to Valdes, and then was ko'd more decisively by Kitione Lave than by any of these other men.

Now Ellis:

53 fights 40 victories 12 defeats 1 draw 24 ko's 4 ko'd by

Ellis fought tougher opposition, but his winning percentage was much lower. He was stopped once every 13 fights while Cockell was stopped once every 9 fights. And, in fairness to Ellis, his four ko defeats were to Frazier twice, Shavers, and Ali. It is interesting to note that Ellis began his pro career at 21. Cockell had suffered four knockouts by that age.

Now no one, including myself, considers Cockell in the same class as Ellis and he is routinely considered a joke. But I think he might be underrated. He has a pretty good winning percentage, better than Ellis by quite a margin, and a decent knockout percentage. He was at one time the European lightheavy champion and the British Empire heavyweight champion, and he defeated a reasonable number of world rated fighters. Quite a few of his defeats came as a teenager and most of his defeats when mature were to world class fighters.

 

The Carter bout was a mistake. Ellis stopped Carter in 7 rounds, not the other way around. I made the change on BoxRec. So Ellis was only stopped 4 times during his career. Frazier twice, Ali and Shavers.

Thanks, Henry

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=16178&cat=boxer

Also, Ellis was boxing top notch boxers almost at the outset. He fought Mims in his 6th pro bout and then beat him in his 9th. This is after Mims won his last 8 in a row. If you look at his 12 defeats, you will see that everyone of them were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another and most were rated when they beat Ellis. Where as, Cockell lost 14 times and only 4 were contenders.

 

Cockell was the weakest challenge but he did have 10 wins in a row and wins over Matthews 3 times, John Arthur,Tommy Farr,Roland Lastarza....Granted it was after Marciano destroyed them and only Moore survived intack to fight without being ruined...still I have seen the Rudi ****rs, and Alfred Evangelista, Lorenzo Zannons,Chuck Wepners,Ron Standers, Terry Daniels, David Beys,Jose Roman, Richard Dunns,Jurgin Blins and I must say Cockell fought as well as all of them, he fought with heart but he just prolonged the inevitable and Marciano was not as intense as usual...still it was a one sided shellacking

 

I agree that he was Rocky's weakest opponent when he was Champion.

David Bey was rated as high as #3 for over 2 years when Holmes and Spinks were Champions. Zanon was rated as high as #5. Also, I am good friends with Chuck Wepner and he could really take it too.

 

Bey beat Greg Page to get the shot but to show you how bad the fighters were in the 80's he won only 4 of his next 16 fights from Holmes on and he was stopped 9 times...Zannon was Ko'd by Norton,Quarry,and Dante Cane before getting a title shot...I seen Wepner lose to Randy Nuemann and others, Chuck could not punch at all, had zero skill, was easy to hit...he bleed during the instructions...but he would bleed without crying. It would be hard to rate the best from the worst and I think Cockell was in the higher bunch of this group and would certainly beat Richard Dunn, Jurgin Blin, Terry Daniels,Ron Stander but that would be an intersting post to rate all those who challenged for the lineal or peoples championship

 

Cockell wasn't the best of Marciano's challengers, but he has some wins over ranked contenders, which is more than what you can say of half of Holmes' title defenses.