Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

Mr. Hascup, thanks for the Year end ratings. What is the source?

 

How many of those fought every dangerous opponent they could fight for 10 years, though?

Bowe - clearly didn't
Tunney - clearly didn't, retired early, never fought a black opponent and his heavyweight resume is razor thin
Marciano - he did, but for half of the period of time that Lewis did
Johansson - didn't fight Liston and retired after only 5 years at the top, again, less than half the time Lewis spent there.

Of the contenders:

Steve Hamas - like others, only fought for 5 years.


If you go into the details, you'll find that this particular feat of beat every men he fought is damn impressive considering he fought almost exclusively top contenders for 12 years straight, with less litter during that period than pretty much any other champion in history.

Email that to Lampley.

 

He talks about Quarry having trouble with Ali and Frazier as though it projects that he'd struggle with any average Joe blow.

 

Good point BUT you know yourself that back then when bouts went the distance, they would call the bout a draw or No contest. The bout with Gavigan was a service bout in which bouts that went the distance, was called a draw.

BUT your right if you count those decisions.

 

The All-Time Heavyweight Ratings. I don't think it's official BUT it gives you a pretty good idea who were the best at that time.

http://us.share.geocities.com/mgpaul2/Fights.htm

http://www.geocities.com/mgpaul2/

 

Funny but Moore landed pretty good on Ali and that was 8 yrs after he fought Marciano, I could Imagine him giving Ali some trouble in his prime. Patterson with injuries gave Ali a good fight and landed some good combo's and he went into the fight with a bad back.

Cleveland Big Cat Williams was already KO'd by Bob Satterfield who was a contender in the 50's.

Doug Jones who gave Ali a very tough close fight was already beaten by 50's contender Harold Johnson. So in your worship of Ali and the fighters of the 70's you seem to lack a real focus on the abilty of some of the fighter of the 50' and there talent. I know a lot of Ali fans want to believe he was really superman or Mighty mouse but in fact fighter like Jones,Cooper, Banks gave Ali trouble and Cooper was beaten 7 times in the 1950 4 of them by KO before he fought Ali.

Sonny Liston had some of his wars with Marty Marshall in the mid 50's and Marty Marshall was 175lb tough fighter from the 50's but 2 of his losses were to Satterfield and Harold Johnson.

Frazier had a short career and I think he would walk into a lot of JJWalcotts pinpoint power punches P.P.P. J.J. had it and Charles was crafty and Dangerous and could compete with the best

I seen a lot of your posts before and I respect Ali as an ATG but he also had problems with certain style fighters Pressure fighter like Frazier and Norton and Jones and Cooper gave him a scare...based on that I think that Ali,Marciano,Louis as great as they were, were also fortunate that they did not have to face each other or some of the contenders of each others era that could bring out the worst in them....Its tough to dominate in EVERY era

 

funny young clay predicted moore will fall in four - that's how much trouble he had with him. anyway that was only an ancient archie (only 1 loss in 6 years before facing clay) and i suggest you watch the fight again and total up the punches landed by each. i think you'll be surprised at the stats. peak cleveland williams wouldn't make the top 10 of ali's era. you are always gonna get off-nights where fighters don't perform at their best e.g. quarry v ellis, ali v wepner etc. doug jones when young clay fought him had ko'd bob foster just prior to their fight and lost to zora folley very close on points. he was not a bad fighter at that time - only losses were on points - never ko'd so he was durable. and i can't see walcott or charles lasting the distance v frazier.

 

Clay vs Moore can't be looked at and used as any real measure of anything. Neither man was even remotely close to what he had either been or was going to become. Clay was a 20 year old, 15 fight novice while Moore was a 48 year old faded veteran. As Groove pointed out, Clay anialated Moore and even called the round in which he was going to finish him. I also just got through rewatching the match on youtube and while Moore certainly tried to hunt down Clay/Ali, he wasn't landing much of anything that cought my eye.

 

"Cleveland Williams wouldn't make the top ten of Ali's era."

He did make the the top ten in the Ali era. He was rated from 1961 to 1964 and was rated #4 in 1964 when Ali was champion. Williams was never rated in the yearly ratings in the fifties. He dropped out of the ratings in the sixties when he was shot by a policeman. He came back but he was never the same fighter after that.

 

i'm calling ali's era as all the great heavies between 1964-78 - his heavyweight championship years. you have liston, frazier, patterson, quarry, foreman, terrell, ellis, bonavena, lyle, young, holmes, norton - i could pick 10 outta those 12 for being better than williams.

 

Well, Tunney's bouts in April of 1919 in Paris with KO Sullivan and Ted Jamieson in the AEF tournament went 10 rounds with Tunney winning decisions. I really don't know what their policies were for these service bouts, and they certainly were unusual.

As for Gavigan, it is possible he may have been able to hang in there with Tunney. He was far more experienced than Tunney, having fought Harry Greb, George Chip, and Frank Mantell. He probably represented a step up in class and experience for a green Tunney and in those circumstances a tough fight can often be expected.

I don't think Tunney qualifies, regardless, as having beaten every man he fought. It is fair to say no opponent proved themselves better, but off what I've read of his fight with Loughran, it seems arbitrary to give him credit for a victory in a fight in which the press was split on the winner in a ND bout.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your point.

I do think myself Williams has a good shot at making the top ten of your list. He actually did ko Terrell, Norton always had trouble with punchers, Ellis never beat any top man who was as big as Williams and could box, and Quarry and Bonavena were much smaller. Patterson never beat any top man as big as Williams either.

 

In light of Ingo he beat every man he faced but he finished losing to the man that he beat so he was NOT the better man, Lewis finished on top. In Bowe's case, he lost to Holy and finished on top but in reality he never really BEAT Golota...Golota beat Golota (those fights ruined Big Daddy ) you can call them a win but Bowe was fried after those fights

 

I agree BUT a win is a win. That's how Max became Champion. I met Golota when I attended a boxing meeting at the Rocky Marciano gym in Jersey City. In the middle of the meeting the door opened from upstairs and in came Golota. He was living actually living at the gym at that time. We talked for a while and then he went back upstairs.

Last night I ring announced in North Bergen, NJ and my good friend Steve Smoger was one of the referees. Others that I announced were Chuck Wepner, Chuck Zito, Harold Lederman, Al "Ice" Cole, Kevin Johnson, Freddie Curiel, Wayne Johnson, Vinny Maddalone, Beattle Juice and others.

Wepner is such a nice guy, he was so busy talking to everyone that he forgot to come over to say heloo to my wife. Early this morning he called my house to tell her that he was sorry. Harold always has something to say, another real good guy.

Oh yea, the fights were pretty good too!