Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

Jack Roper while not a southpaw was a switch hitter.

 

When it comes to Heavyweight Championship bouts, Ali was the 1st to box a southpaw when he fought Karl Mildenberger in 1966.

 

There is no way Marciano compares to Joe Louis (or Muhammad Ali), but he doesn't do that badly is you compare him to other champions, some of whom often rate in the top ten all-time--Wins against rated fighters. All stats taken from the Boxing Register:

1. Marciano--11
2. Liston--8
3. Foreman--7
4. Frazier--9
5. Norton--4
6. Schmeling--6
7. Patterson--14
8. Walcott--12
9. Ingemar Johansson--2

And fighters from other weight classes:
1. Basilio--8
2. Zarate--4
3. Foster--13
4. Galaxy--3
5. Fenech--7
6. Harada--7
7. Loi--6
8. Jofre--14
9. Cerdan--8
10. Wilfredo Gomez--10
11. Zale--7
12. Hagler--14
13. Pryor--7

Marciano rates about the middle of the pack in wins against rated fighters despite having a relatively short career. And I think it is fair to point out that he did not lose to any of these men. Walcott had 13 losses. Patterson 8. Marciano is also the only man to knock out all the rated fighters he fought since the ratings began, and only Marciano and Monzon were able to defeat more than ten rated fighters while maintaining a perfect record against them.

 

No comment on this--but on your Marciano comments

1. Close fights with Lowry and LaStarza--Lowry was a trialhorse who had fought quite a few top men and over 100 fights. Marciano had 50 rounds of pro boxing and not a great deal of amateur experience. This fight was close and some thought Lowry got the best of it, but not the three officials. I don't know how anyone can know what "most" thought. Marciano clearly won the rematch. LaStarza had won 37 in a row and had broken into the top ten. Marciano knocked Roland down and won the tightest of split decisions under the New York rules of the time, but it would have been a fairly decisive unanimous decision under a point system in which Marciano would have been given a point credit for the knockdown and the low blow would have counted for a one point deduction rather than an effective two point deduction as a round Marciano won was taken from him and given to LaStarza. Marciano still edged out a win and of course stopped LaStarza in a rematch.
You can also point to disputed decisions with anyone. "Most" thought Walcott lost to Louis. Mendoza has argued vehemently on this board that Godoy deserved the decision in their first fight. Some thought Pastor won his first fight with Louis. The Adolf Wiater fight was disputed.
It is the same story with other champs. Liston with Summerlin. Ali with Norton and Young. Holmes with Norton and Witherspoon. I personally thought Frazier lost to Bonavena. Marciano just had fewer of these close fights. He was never outright beaten and the two close decisions broke for him. He left no doubt in the rematches.

1. Charles--While there is much made of "most" people thinking Marciano lost to Lowry or LaStarza, few mention that "most" people also thought Charles beat Walcott and Layne in 1952, and Johnson in 1953. If these close decisions had gone to him, the perception that he was slipping would not be as strong.

2. Matthews--Matthews had won 50 in a row and was a rated heavyweight when he fought Marciano, following a win over Layne, and stoppages of Buford (who had beaten Henry and Thompson) and Beshore. He weighed 179, more than Gibbons against Dempsey or Conn against Louis or Corbett against Sullivan.

3. Savold--He was rated the #2 contender by RING and held a paper title when he went against Louis in June, 1951. When he fought Marciano in Feb, 1952, he had been dropped from the rankings by RING for inactivity. Savold was a long time contender and an in and outer. One can point to the ko defeats, but he had also scored 65 knockouts including Nova (2), Franklin (2), Flynn, Walker, and Woodcock, all top five heavyweights at one time or another.

4. Shkor--had been stopped by Walcott and was very erratic. However, in the fight before the Walcott fight he had beaten Rusty Payne. He had a habit of bouncing back from bad performances with a surprise win such as the upset of Mauriello in 1947. Sort of a journeyman with teeth.

5. Reynolds--had been slipping, but scored a big ko over the promising James J Parker in the fight directly before being matched with Marciano.

Layne, Louis, Matthews, Walcott, LaStarza, Charles, Cockell, and Moore were rated at the top of the heavyweight division, and they were certainly as big on the whole as most of the top contenders of earlier generations.

 

There is no question that Joe Louis fought many more good fighters over a much longer period of time. Who defeated the five or six toughest opponents is a closer call.

 

You are right, my apologies. I think i'm past my prime.

 

I think if we include how Marciano won, compared to how Louis did against his best 6 opponents, Marciano probably gets the better of it:

Louis vs:
Walcott - most believe he lost the first, though he decisively won the second match.
Charles - lost, though Louis was in pretty bad shape
Schmeling - lost one decisively, won one in extremely dominant fashion
Baer - won in a dominant performance
Carnera - dito
Conn - struggled a bit, but ultimately won the first and dominated the rematch

Marciano vs:
Walcott - struggled but left no doubt about the winner, and won by first round KO in the rematch
Charles - beat Charles in a hard first fight, but was the decisive winner. Knocked him out rather one-sidedly in the rematch
Louis - competitive for the first five/six rounds, but destroyed him in the 8th and at no point previous was he in trouble.
Moore - Marciano won every round except when he got knocked down.
Layne - knocked him out cold in the 6th.
LaStarza won a very close first fight and knocked him out in the rematch


It should be noted though, that Louis was somewhat young against Schmeling and aging against Charles and Walcott. Then again, he did destroy Baer and Carnera during the same "young" period, so how legit this excuse is seems questionable to me. You have to take the good with the bad. Unfortunately, the best opponents he faced came at the beginning and end of his career, but not so much during his peak.

 

Not past your prime ,maybe past your bed time.

 

First class post!

 

Louis took his eye off the ball against Schmeling ,for the first and only time he disregarded Blackburn's orders ,goofed off and played golf. Joe thought because Baer had kod Max ,and he had stopped Baer the fight was a foregone conclusion, he never made that mistake again.
One thing about Marciano,with the possible exception of Moore the challengers he beat as Champion were never the same after meeting him, he ruined some very good men.

 

Watch your words old man!

 

When I stated that most people thought Lowry won their 1st bout, I was going by all the newspapers at that time. They fought at the Rhode Island Auditorium, in Providence, RI, where Rocky fought more then half his total bouts. He is the only Heavyweight Champion to box more then half their bouts at one place.

In the 2nd bout with Lowry, Lowry took the bout on short notice, BUT Rocky won going away. I met Ted several times, the last being Late last year and he told me that Joey Maxim was the best fighter he ever fought. He also said that Rocky was very strong BUT Rocky couldn't knock him out.

Charles was not the boxer he once was when he fought Rocky. Ezzard had another 23 bouts after the 2nd Marciano bout and he only won 10 of them. So in his last 25 bouts, Charles was 10-15.

Matthews did beat Layne BUT Layne had seen better days. He got beat by 10-3 Willie James where he was knocked down a total of 3 times, just over 3 months before meeting Matthews.

Savold, I know many people that worked with him during his career and when he fought Louis & Rocky he was over 36 years old and wasn't the same as he once was.

We can go on and on with this. It depends on how your matching them up.

If you want to match up Rocky in his prime, against any of Louis's opponents, Rocky would have come out on top.

If you matched him during the same time frame as when Louis fought them, in my opinon, Rocky would not have been undefeated.

What if Louis fought in the same time frame as Rocky did. How do you think Louis would have done against all of Rocky's opponents.

 

I researched the following:

Ali fought 49 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. Here’s a list of the International Boxing Hall of Fame Heavyweight Champions and how many of them they fought. I also added Bivins, Tyson and Holyfield.


This is the number of boxers that they fought that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another.


Ali 49 out of 61 bouts 80.3%
Louis 54 out of 71 bouts 76%
Bivins 83 out of 112 bouts 74.1%
Holyfield 38 out of 54 bouts 70.4%
Charles 77 out of 115 bouts 67%
Sharkey 35 out of 55 bouts 63.6%
Lewis 25 out of 44 bouts 56.8%
Frazier 19 out of 37 bouts 51.35%
Patterson 32 out of 64 bouts 50%
Walcott 35 out of 71 bouts 49.3%
Liston 25 out of 54 bouts 46.3%
Tyson 26 out of 58 bouts 44.8%
Norton 20 out of 50 bouts 40%
Holmes 30 out of 75 bouts 40%
Johansson 11 out of 28 bouts
Braddock 29 out of 86 bouts 33.7%
Baer 28 out of 84 bouts 33.3%
Foreman 27 out of 81 bouts 33.3%
Marciano 16 out of 49 bouts 32.65%
Schmeling 20 out of 70 bouts 28.6%

I also have them in the other weight divisions as well.

I have STATS on 134 International Boxing Hall of Famers and Ali rated 1st on percentage with Louis a close 2nd, and Rocky coming in at 108.

On pure numbers, Louis rates 42nd and Ali 49th with Rocky coming in at 122.

 

I think the interesting aspect of this is that Lowry said Joey Maxim was the "best fighter he foiught" when he fought Archie Moore. I don't really know what to make of ex-fighters comments.

 

Yea, I was told by Ike Williams that Tippy Larkin was the best pure boxer he ever faced.

I also did a study on what you put down. How many top 10 boxers did each of them beat when they were in the top 10.

Out of a total of 90 boxers that I have so far, Rocky was #51. This is counting all divisions.

I am now doing a research study on all the top 10 contenders that were ever rated in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. Right now I am up to the middle of 1995 and I am closing in on 3500. One boxer fought 171 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another and he fought well over 100 when they were rated in the top 10. Does anyone want to take a guess on who that boxer is.