Marciano In Tyson's Era

Checkout the Valentino and Lee Savold footage if you think louis completely lost all his power. Louis only scored 2 kos, but look at how easily he beat those 8 men(Bivins brion savold agramonte beshore walker) Near shutout unanimous decision wins, in which the men took horrible damage. Louis certainlty still had enough one punch power to inflict heavy damage even if his finishing combinations were gone. But like in the footage below he could still turn it on once in a while

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRsAbgV3tdk[/ame]


Once again, a decling Pinklon Thomas, Berbick, Smith, Tucker, Tubbs, etc were not great fighters. Just very good contenders(Like Joe Louis in 1950). I don't see why a 1950 Joe Louis is any different from those men. He was of similiar size, skill set, speed, and jab. He certainly would have killed those men in his prime.

 

Wow, after watching this fight no one can convince me 6'0 fighters like Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles wouldn't have had their way with Tucker. Both were far better than Orlin Norris. Norris was only 5'9

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZX9vdKpbMw[/ame]

 

You've already posted this footage, I didn't say Louis lost his power, I meant he couldn't land his better punches on good opponents anymore. Yes Louis can punch against an easy to hit target, he couldn't react to the openings of better opponents, hence he couldn't 'pull the trigger' anymore

Louis style is nothing like those Tucker/Thomas/Tubbs, he isn't as big, he doesn't use lateral movement, he doesn't even attempt to keep opponents at range (not his style), his jab isn't as snappy/rangy, his footwork is more plodding

and his reactions were shot to pieces. Stylistically these men match up better than a past it Louis

This is an older Tucker than the prime version Tyson fought, here he won a close fight against a prime world cruserweight champ, nothing wrong with that and Charles lost to Valdes who was a couple of levels below Tucker skill wise before he got in with Rocky

 

Thomas had a beautiful jab, one of the best the division saw in that decade. No he was not particularly mobile, tho probably more mobile than an old Louis, who himself could be mummy-like in pursuit at his best.

Tubbs, at his best, was infinitely more mobile than Louis, and showed great lateral movement which Louis rarely displayed.

Louis is my #1 favorite heavy. His style is efficient, without waste and cruelly effective. However, at 37, he was shot. His right hand didn't work and he had all failings of old age, and frankly didn't look like he wanted to be there.

 

I am not saying they were bad. They were highly skilled. But physically, they were not on the level of the 80's heavies. Most would have taken residence in the cruiser division in the 80's. Guys like Tucker, Bruno, Smith and Ruddock were strong as hell and wore down fighters... not always but more often than not. Also, if you are 185 pounds and have to fight 6 of these monsters in a row, you will not be the same fighter on the other side as you were when you came in. And The Rock was worn down by the end of his career. On a one-off, The Rock could have picked any of these guys and had a chance to win, but having a career amidst them I think he would have been worn down either before reaching the championship or shortly after.

 

bla

 

True

 

I like Thomas's jab too, but he wasn't really great at using it to keep opponents off him. Weaver was inside that jab bouncing hooks off his head. Berbick got past that jab easy enough.
You say Louis was shot at 37. Okay, but Thomas was near enough shot at 29, and totally shot by 31.
And Louis was still beating fringe contenders at 36/37. Most of them agreed that his jab was still quite devastating.
There's nothing to back up the claim that somehow Louis was slipped below the level of a fading Pinklon Thomas.

When was Tubbs really good ?
You can argue selective points about "Tubbs did this better than Joe Louis", "Tubbs did that better than Louis", but as a total package there's nothing to show Tubbs was on that level.
He was typical example of a fighter with some cute moves but no discipline and conditioning.

You make statements about Louis, "frankly looked like he didn't want to be there" and was all broken up and shot at 37, but these 80s heavyweights that you are suddenly and bizarrely building up as monsters were NOTORIOUS for being unmotivated, disinterested nutcases with all sorts of personal issues, management issues and other assorted reasons for habitually failing to perform.

 

what I meant was 4 decades his genetic make-up would make for a larger man just as my father,grandfather,etc. were smaller than I AND MY SONS ARE LARGER i FIGURED MOST WOULD GET IT.

 

I was laughing at the phrasing my friend, the genetic make up hasn't changed, the quality of food/nutrition available to later generations has improved, having meat used to be a weekly luxury for generations past, now we have it whenever we feel like it, that's why kids grow bigger, stronger, taller today not because of genetic evolution

Yes perhaps Rocky grows into a taller, more muscular bigger and even denser man if born 30years later, into a family who can provide him with beef/chicken daily from a young age. Or if he's even luckier he's adopted by a west indian family who give him the king of all meats, Goat :yep (if you haven't tried goat, you should, the most beautiful meat)

 

Berbick was not outmuscled by ST Gordon.
Smith was not outmuscled by Frazier.
Norris did not frustrate Tucker by trading power shots with him.
With all respect, compare styles in the matchups not trivia ... Was Marciano going to slip and move and outbox Tucker ? Come on ...

 

Actually my points were in answer to the suggestion that the top 1950s "cruiser" heavyweights (not just Marciano) wouldn't have fared well against 1980s heavyweights.But some of the guys from the 1980s proved they could lose to mediocre 190 - 200 ish pounders or sub-6 footers, so I wouldn't put much stock in them beating GREAT ones.As for Tony Tucker, who did he beat that was so impressive ?

 

First, I appreciate your point. As far as Tucker goes, you think Marciano would out muscle him ? I think with his jab alone Marciano would have a fit ... the man was twice his size ... there are a reason there are weight divisions ... Tucker fought a fairly competitive fight against a prime Tyson ...

 

Tucker was okay, and yes he was tall and about 220 pounds by the time he fought Tyson. So of course he presents a worthy obstacle.

Do I think Marciano would outmuscle him ? No, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Rocky being the stronger man - I remember Tucker was naturally quite a beanpole who managed to get to 215, 220 at his peak.

I think it's likely Marciano would find a way to outFIGHT him, outpunch him, outsmart him even. Marciano was clearly a great fighter and a stubborn vicious puncher.
Tucker's record is defined by him losing to Tyson.

 

I don't mind saying I really can't see Marciano losing to these guys :

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDJ4-Lja6c[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtNdcq_maA[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQUT9uoM7R8[/ame]