Marciano In Tyson's Era

i think you could switch them and they'd have equal success. the only difference is that rocky's period included ATG's and Tyson's didn't. well we can pair off holmes and louis but as for the others, i'd say rocky's era was much tougher and much greater.

 

No, I'm trying to get back to my point that got overlooked... the one where I argued the cumulative punishment from bigger, stronger, harder hitting heavyweights over a career would wear down Marciano more quickly than the punishment from a group of lightheavies and cruisers.

 

They wouldn't be setting traps with their feet, feinting like magicians, and ambushing Maricano with quick flush counters either.

They would be more comparable to aging Louis, who outside of a few stiff jabs, had considerable trouble finding Rocky with good power shots.

 

They would be leaning down on him 12 rounds at a time, mauling him in clinches with 225 plus pounds and much more strength than the light heavies of the 50's and landing big powershots when he was nowhere near in range... (please don't play me that highlight vid of the Rock's underrated defense, he still got tagged A LOT from the outside). Generally, none of these guys was as stale in the 1980's as the Louis that Marciano fought. Sure, Tubbs and Pinky were a bit erratic with drug problems but still demonstrated more snap than the mummy that was Louis by the time the Rock got to him. I really like this upvalueing of Joe Louis at 37. It goes against pretty much everything any contemporary said of Louis at the time, but I guess protecting the myth of Marciano is more important than reality.

Again, I'm not saying he could not beat any one of the guys Tyson fought in a one-off fight, just that he would be worn the hell out, his back shot, his face broken by the time he got half way through Tyson's line-up to Douglas. And yes, I believe he would have a greater chance losing to one or more of these guys due to the significant physical disadvantages he had.

 

We sweet talk me like this...I can't help but ignore you.

 

What they said about Joe Louis was true.

But I think you're the one doing the up-valuing. There was considerable talk about Pinklon Thomas being over-the-hill before he faced Tyson, and he wasn't exactly a legend in his absolute prime.

Tubbs' form going in to the Tyson fight was pretty awful. I fail to see how lacklustre points decisions over Mike Jameson (who decked him) and Wimpy Halstead qualify him to be a more sturdy adversary than even the old Joe Louis. He couldn't even bother to get into his best shape for Tyson, his trainer walked out on him in disgust a week before the fight.

The quality of the fighter can largely be judged by recent results and performances, (though maybe not completely). That's exactly what you doing with Joe Louis. And you're not wrong to point out he was badly damaged goods.
But the same standards should apply to Thomas and Tubbs.

 

Yes, perhaps so, but you are making quite a lot of assumptions.
We don't know how "broken" Marciano really was after 49 fights as a result of taking punishment.

We don't know exactly how many of Tyson's opponents would extend him enough to inflict the damage. Or how Tyson's pre-title opposition stacks up to Marciano's first 35 or so fights.

I daresay Holyfield's first 18 fights (the light-heavies and cruisers) would be more damaging and harder to beat than Tyson's first 18 fights (all heavyweights) ..... just an example.

 

Of couse Marciano can also just blow though this 1980's bunch of druggies and junkies like Tyson did also.

The few big guys Marciano did face, he did blow them out in a few rounds. The guys of Tyson's era were not really the speeders like Walcott or Charles, expect Holmes and Spinks. Reason Tyson blasted them out so fast, was because they were there to be hit.

 

I agree.
I understand the general point that Marciano would have serious trouble with certain huge heavyweights from the 1970s - onwards.
But Tyson's opposition in his 1986 - '89 reign ? It's being ridiculously overrated. They were a mediocre bunch, and many were past it or well on their ways out, or in the middle of some horrible career form.

 

There is no question about it. Marciano was a face first brawler who beat down opponents with strength, power and stamina ... 190 pound Walcott aside he traded leather with a small cruiser (LaStarza) , a blown up light heavy (Charles) , another blown up light heavy (Cockell) and another blown up light heavy (Moore) ... against this competition he was able to impose his will through superior strength and power ... he never out boxed any of them. He never outboxed anyone. He over powered them . I do not see how he does this, with his skill set and style, against much bigger, stronger men on a consistant basis. No knock on Rocky. There is a reason there are weight classes. Others have the right to disagree. This is just how I feel about it ..

 

Spurious logic again from the Rock Crowd.

The few big guys Rocky faced were few and horrible. Bill Bardemon, James Connelly, Johnny Skhorr.

Tyson face big guys who were championship fighters, Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, Razor Ruddock, Frank Bruno, Trevor Berbick. Big men with championship records... and not one or two of them but the majority of his fights on his run to and through the title. A great lightheavy, fast and powerful, faced Tyson and got blown out in a round.

 

Yeah, I'd imagine you could say the same for Dempsey and Frazier. After all, Dempsey isn't going to have to struggle with fat Meehan or LHW Gibbons, nor get embarrassed by blown up LHW Tunney, nor blow over big oafs. Instead fight real big skilled men. And Frazier, well he's not going to be able to feast on blown up MW Ellis, blown up LHW Foster, and hittable Quarry, and fat, slow, punching bag Ron Standers during his rise and defense of the title. He's going to have to fight big strong technical fighters that can actually punch! Hey, maybe this Mike Tyson guy is actually much better than we all thought?

 

The argument for Dempsey is legit ... not Frazier, he did beat Ali.

 

This was not a stack of Foreman's or Liston's here. Or even Kilt brothers.

 

I dont think any of the guys mention are on the level of Marciano. They were champions because of the ABC era. Had it been one title, Tyson, Holmes and Spinks would had been the top dogs in the divison title wise.
Berbick was struggleing with a shot dead Ali imo. Over all I cant see this bunch giving Marciano too much problems.