Marciano of the Moore fight vs Foreman of the briggs fight

Ali never really used body shots. Ergo, im not going to make ridiculous claims like "well if holyfield can land body blows on giants like lewis then Ali would hurt Lewis with body shots".

Shawn Porter never had much of a jab. Ergo, im not going to claim "well hes about the same size as maidana and had a similar style, so if maidana can land jabs on floyd so could Porter".

It doesnt matter what tommy did. If rocky never did it im not going to assume he could. You arent changing my opinion. Hence, why i decided to drop it. Feel free to keep howling at the moon.

So hes going to have a hard time closing the distance, let alone landing anything. Seriously do you even watch boxing?

I didnt change the goal post. The goal is for rocky to hear the final bell without being put into a coma.

He cant just slip one or two punches, feint one or two times, or back up one or two times and fight the way he normally does for the remainder of the fight. Hes going to need to be on full alert and evasive from start to finish. I never said otherwise. Ive always maintained rocky isnt beating george with his usual style and so did you, otherwise you wouldnt keep bringing fan fiction arguments. At least bcs8 acknowledges it.

Georges jab is still longer and way more powerful than joes.

1-missing 2/3 of the punches you throw when your opponent is against the ropes counts as "combination punching" now...? Big George can attest to how ridiculous that claim is. Fact is rocky was wild, its there on film to see, as you like to repeat. Its why his fights with old light heavyweights took so long.

2-by "counter" i mean rocky will be running into foremans clubbing blows if he goes on the attack with his usual style.

*yawn*

Heres another fact: he would have been stopped on cuts in the modern era, especially the charles fight.

He never fought any modern size shws.

Oh and he was dropped by old light heavies in the first two rounds. Nice try glossing over it tho.

As i just showed in my response to bcs8, foreman wasnt just blubber. Theres a reason guys half his age couldnt outmuscle or outslug him and often chose to fight backing upm holyfield lifted weights amd acknowledged his tremendous strength and even said he was the hardest hitter he fought.

You cant pull a jeep, dig a 6 foot hole, or chop logs all day and not develop muscle. He lifted weights, shadow boxed with dumbbells and did bicep curls. You cant be 40+ years of age and box for 12 rounds with fit young heavyweights if youre just 200+ lbs of fat. Youre getting desperate. Everyone knows how strong foreman is.

No im picking him because hes way stronger, has a granite chin, hits harder than rocky, and styles make fights. Its a bad match up. No swarmer beat foreman at his own game.

Again, you cant be 40 years old and go 12 rounds with 20 year olds with "no stamina". You criticize me for a "primitive analysis" and then you do the same thing.

Facts? Literally everything i wrote about both fighters can be verified through a simple google search.

You havent made a single valid case for rocky winning. Im dead serious. I stopped arguing because you insist on using fan fiction versions of a boxer and i will ignore you again if you repeat the same bs. Of course im going to insult you. Notice i havent called bcs8 any names even tho hes pro rocky?

 

Evander used jabs to the body in that fight. I would say Ali would have lots of success jabbing Lewis to the body, perhaps even more success than Evander did.

And you seem to be under the impression that Tommy Morrison completely transformed his style against Foreman, which he did not. He still swarmed and fought on the inside, he was just able to sustain himself better because he could simply walk away from Foreman whenever he wanted.

It's obvious I watch far more than you. The Qwai fight you erroneously described as a demolition job shows a man smaller than Marciano closing the distance and landing on old Foreman pretty easily.

Oh but you did, you asked for examples of Marciano doing specific tasks, and when provided with such examples, you won't admit to being wrong and rearranged the goal posts to the point it's not even clear what you are trying to say anymore. I provided those examples as I said for my own amusement because I knew you would not be able to admit to being wrong.

The way Morrison fought Foreman wouldn't be a style stretch for Marciano, it would actually be easier than his usual style. Maricano probably wouldn't even need to fight that away against Foreman, but it's good that he has the option to walk away if he's ever uncomfortable.

In terms of wing span, two inches. Which isn't drastic, that's likely less than an inch of actual reach assuming their shoulders are the same width. Foreman could probably manage a more powerful jab than Joe Louis on an individual basis, but I would say more often than not his jabs appear weaker and less of a determent to his opponents. Louis' jab was nearly as long and often thrown with better snap, timing, and quickness.

And the big point you miss, Maricano did in fact avoid Louis' jab for most of the fight and frequently got inside. Just watch the fight, it's there on film.

You wouldn't call this combination punching?

[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/marciano-vs-moorewmv-4YY-hb[/url]

Rocky could be wild. Especially if he had a hurt man he was looking to take out. He didn't waste time and put the pressure on, not worrying if it was pretty. I certainly wouldn't say the last round of the Moore fight defines his typical style, nor what he would do against old Foreman unless he had him rocked him and knew there wasn't anything coming back.

What is Maricano's usual style? If we are talking the Joe Louis fight, he was very respective of his opponent's power and used lots of movement to avoid running into punches.

Against Moore, he was very cautious after the KO until he hurt Moore and was desperate to get him out of there.

Again, you don't understand what a fact is. In a age where Vitali was allowed to fight 3 rounds with a very severe cut and Roy Jones was allowed to finish a fight with his eye lid completely torn off and spraying blood like a horror movie...I think Maricano getting one round in a Heavyweight Title fight he was winning is completely reasonable. There's cause to doubt your opinion there.

Factually incorrect.

At the age of 33 he was in fact dropped by a 38 year old man of equal weight for a count of 4 in the second round. Both men were heavyweights and weighed 188 for the fight. That's the facts.

Who cares? He wasn't applying said power in the ring anymore. Kickboxers like Crawford Grimsley were going the distance with him.

So bizarre you think he's the old Foreman.

My quote was 49 years old. Not 40 year old. Foreman in this fight is 49 years old. And yes, his stamina was ****.

You don't know what a fact is. You keep throwing out opinions and calling them facts.

Insult away, you are the one that looks a frustrated moron.

 

More Marciano combination punching in the Moore fight...

l[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/marciano-vs-moorewmv-BPTTm5[/url]

[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/marciano-vs-moorewmv-Ei5cge[/url]

love this one..Moore is expecting another right hand but Maricano doubles the left hook and scores the KO.

[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/marciano-vs-moorewmv-5D_sqL[/url]

 

Aaand we're done. You took the bait and responded just how i thought you would.

This is exactly why i cant take you seriously. You speculate that Ali would be a better body puncher than Holyfield despite the fact he hardly ever threw a single body shot in more than 50 fights. And you want to accuse me of not using "facts".

As I said before, i dont give a single flinging rat turd what another boxer could do if the boxer we're actually discussing never did it. When you are ready to grow up and not use fan fiction, we can talk.

 

Relax guys. We're going round in circles here.

Even though I think he's wrong, GC Cobra put up a spirited argument for Foreman. Let's give him that much.

And that's what we're here for.

Kentucky Cobra, love those gifs. I really need to learn to make them.

 

No, you just been crushed and want out.

I never claimed my opinion as a fact.

Ali most certainly was capable of directing his jab to the body as Evander did against Lewis, in fact he did it pretty frequently.

And as usual, I will support my comment with video evidence that you will ignore because you can't admit to being wrong.

[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/muhammad-ali-amazing-dancing-in-fight-oI4yGI[/url]

 

Really Glass City Cobra...do you watch these fights?

It seems to me you take anecdotal generalizations and try to apply them as literal rules of thumb.

You hear "Ali wasn't a great body puncher" and somehow you get the notion, a fighter of Ali's ability is incapable of jabbing a guy to the body. You can't be serious.

Hard jab to the body:

[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/muhammad-ali-amazing-dancing-in-fight-1UxWt3[/url]

Combination to the body to set up a right cross:

[url]http://makeagif.com/gif/muhammad-ali-amazing-dancing-in-fight-WIR_3j[/url]


It certainly wasn't Ali's go to strategy as he was normally a taller guy and avoided leaning in but against rangy guys like Big Cat, he certainly did it. And if Lewis left his body wide open like he did against Evander in the rematch, he would certainly get jabbed downstairs. As Ali had a superior jab to Holyfield.

My advice...actually watch these fighters, it's clear you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

Ive seen all of alis fights. He wasnt much of a body puncher. You are talking out of your ass. You show one or two instances of a boxer doing something and then extrapolate as if theyre an expert. I can show you clips of Mike tyson actualy using a jab, of Frazier throwing a right hand. Does that mean either of those guys should ever be considered one of the best at either of those attacks? Hell no, mike was not a dedicated jabber and frazier did occasionally throw a right but he neglected it. I know his because ive seen several of their fights.

You are a child. You call me a "moron" then tell me to stop insulting you. You tell me to admit im wrong but you havent conceeded not one goddamn thing. How does that work? You desperately want me to admit im "wrong" and to have the last word. The hilarious part is ive proven you wrong over and over again but you want to take the moral high ground.

-Was i "wrong" when i said foreman was taller and had a much greater reach? No, but you proceeded to play with words and even had the nerve to sat it wouldnt make much of a difference. Because reach doesnt mean much in a boxing match according to you.

-i said foreman could definitely land the jab with great accuracy. You said he was too slow. I proved you wrong with his hit percentage against briggs and holyfield. Was i wrong or did you shift the goal posts and say louis' jab was better? That he only landed on holyfield because he stood in front of foreman? Never mind the fact holyfield was faster and more technically sound? I point out thats exactly where short swarming aggressive rocky would be and you acted like i was talking about a different fighter.

-was i wrong when i said foreman would be pushing rocky back and give him a hard time getting inside? Everyone seems to know this except you. Qawi had some success...and then was stopped. Everyone else who brought it to foreman was usually brutally stopped. Thats not even my opinion its common knowledge. You even made the hilarious claim 188 pound rocky would push him back!

-were you wrong when you extrapolated off of morrison's performance? Absolutely. You keep ignoring the fact morrison won the decision by fighting in spurts and constantly moved away from foreman. That doesnt describe rockys style at all. Im not going to indulge in your fan fiction. He never won a decision fighting in spurts circling and moving away from someone. Ergo, i cant assume he could do it here. If you still dont get it, you must have a learning disability.

-was i wrong when i said rocky was wild and crude? Nope, but according to you he would turn into james toney and befuddle foreman with his ring iq and technique lmao.

-was i wrong when i said foreman wasnt just fat and was in fact very physically strong and still had lots of clubbing power? No, but you tried to play it off and act like it wouldnt make a difference.

-was i wrong when i said rocky was dropped by light heavyweights in the first two rounds and was nearly stopped on a nasty cut against another light heavy? I was absolutely correct in citing these facts, but you proceeded to babble about rockys record which was completely irrelevamt. Was i wrong when i said foreman hit harder than all those guys and would twice as much pressure with his size and aggression? Again, common knowledge that foreman is a top 5 banger at heavyweight.

So if you were wrong about all of the above, how do you have the gall to say i must not really watch fights?

All you want to do is argue, theres no "agree to disagree". You know who thinks that way? Children. You know who insults someone then gets mad when someone calls them out or insults them back? Immature, hypocritical people with no back bone. So spare me your false pride moral high ground. Grow up.

 

See post: #127

I provide video evidence and explain the nature of Ali's body attack and how it can be logically applied to a fantasy fight with Lewis.

I don't see the point to this question.

You refused to show me respect even after I asked you to refrain from the insults. So tough luck, moron.

"You and the other morons on this thread "

" Of course im going to insult you."

See Post #48 You made a factually incorrect statement regarding Tommy's reach in contrast to Marciano's and got called out on it. No word play necessary.

There are no jab stats from the Briggs fight. I called you out on that already.

Congratulations, you completely contradicted your original claim without admitting error. Saying "I was wrong, Qawi was not demolished" would go a along way in earning my respect back.

No, because in my opinion Maricano could successfully implement and even improve upon the Duke's game plan.

Please cite this quote and I will own up to it. I will wait.

see Post #122

No, all the above there is factually incorrect.

Because you clearly haven't.

Post#111

"You and the other morons on this thread made those exact arguments. Do you need me to go through all 8 pages and put them in bold?"

You know who insult people first, than deny doing it when there's evidence just a few pages back...morons.

 

Reading comprehension. I never said ali "never" used body shots i was laughing at your claim hed be better at it than holyfield despite rarely using it.

More fan fiction.

In other words im not gonna say something stupid like "well tyson hurt holmes with a right hand and joe was the same height as mike so he could probably drop holmes with a right too. See look, heres a gif of joe frazier using a right hand!".

Anyone can apply the logic youre using.

Im not the one crying tho. Adds more flavor to the debate, so insult away. I dont respect someone who makes a stupid comment or logic fallacy and even after i correct them they dig their heels and and refuse to back off.

I already conceded this pages ago you asshat. You know what someone means when they say "x amount of reach advantage". They say it all the time on commentary. Do you have to bicker over every single thing?

Youre right. Foreman was robbed. I saw the fight and he was landing several jabs.

Youre still glossing over him nearly outjabbing holyfield. Idc if it was years ago, thats very telling.

1-all i said was he had some success, i never said he didnt get destroyed. Cooper had "some success" against ali with his hook but he was destroyed both fights. The big picture is what matters.

2-i could care less if you respect me.

Pure speculation and fan fiction. You dont know. For all i know Ali could have made a great shooting guard. Its just as irrelevant. Rocky never fought that way. Period.

Im exaggerating. Im being facetious and pointing out how ridiculous it is for you to make a fan fiction version of rocky but i cant use stats from foremans actual fights.

For what? Are you conceding foreman was taller, way stronger, and could shove, club, and rough house rocky if he tried to swarm in? If not this is really going nowhere.

I am incorrect in bringing up the fact rocky was dropped by 2 old light heavies? That didnt happen???

Im not justified in being skeptical that he could take foremans punches? Its a fact they dropped him in the first 2 lmao. And you wonder why i insulted you.

You clearly havent seen rocky vs walcott 1.

When did i deny that i insulted you? Im more than willing to admit that and i wont take it back unless you admit youve been trolling or you have a learning disability.

 

" I would say Ali would have lots of success jabbing Lewis to the body, perhaps even more success than Evander did."
Post #122 You can address my actual comment if you want a response.

As for the rarely using it part I can refer you to...

See post: #127

Ugh....why bring theoretical arguments into the discussion when you can barely manage what is actually going on here.

"Children. You know who insults someone then gets mad when someone calls them out or insults them back? Immature, hypocritical people with no back bone. "-Glass City Cobra...earlier today, apparently describing himself.

See Post #48

See #120

Your use of the adverb "Destroyed" just doesn't ring true. It was a competitive fight until an exhausted Qwai quit in the 7th round, he had just defended a series of punches from Foreman, when he turned his back and walked away, breathing heavily from his mouth. Credit to Foreman for wearing him out but I just can't say he "destroyed" him.

Actually he did.

This content is protected

He just never fought like your fan fiction version of Morrison, and Louis wasn't slow enough to let Rocky take leisure strolls across the ring.

You tried to pass off a total punches stat as a jab stat. There are no jab stats for the Briggs fight. Even than you have to consider the difference between a crouching moving fighter and a walking heavy bag.

Regarding my thoughts on 49 year old Foreman's power see Post #122

Regarding Foreman's height see boxrec.

Once more that is factually incorrect.

If that's what you are referencing.

Walcott was the 196.5 pound HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the World.
Light Heavyweight Limit is 175 pounds. You're welcome.

"Children. You know who insults someone then gets mad when someone calls them out or insults them back? Immature, hypocritical people with no back bone. "-Glass City Cobra...earlier today, apparently describing himself.

 

Forman still KO's Marciano. Marciano would've been tailor made for Forman. Even an Old Foreman. A short, small, pressure fighter, with little defense against a tall, hard punching big man. Id be really surprised if it went 5rds.

 

It doesn’t matter how tailor made Marciano is for him.

There is simply no way that he is going to be able to do it as a 48 year old man.

There are reasons why people in that age bracket are so rarely successful at world level.